Werewolves...Pitiful? *Rant*

This is the place for discussion and voting on various aspects of werewolf life, social ideas, physical appearance, etc. Also a place to vote on how a werewolf should look.
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Werewolves...Pitiful? *Rant*

Post by Vuldari »

This is inspired by a conversation that has been taking place in the "Partial Shifts" thread.

Traditionally, the character we know as the "Werewolf" was imagined as a Person/Beast which was intended to be seen as something to be FEARED whenever it appeared in a story. Werewolf=Monster has always been a "Well Duh" concept. ...just like saying a Vampire, or a Zombie is a Monster. Werewolves were the stars of the kinds of stories that people would tell at night around a fire to spook the kids, or by people trying to frighten townsfolk into staying away from places or types of behavior.


However, now it has become a very popular idea around here that Werewolves are just "POOR, MISUNDERSTOOD Tail Wagging Beasties...", and not really monsters at all, (unless an already super-evil person becomes a Werewolf).

Everyone who likes the concept has been passing it around like they think it is just such a BRILLIANT idea.



I have to ask...do we REALLY want to tear away the Fearsomeness of the Werewolf and replace it with a creature that is deserving of the same kind of pity as Sad, Bitter, Humanity hating ,(Self-Proclaimed "Oppressed"), Teens, Therians, Furries, and generic Social Outcasts?

...because that is what it looks like is happening to me.


It's appearance is being modified to better appeal to a fanbase of a majority of Furries and Therians, all of its associations with it's origins in religion and folklore are being cut, (They were all "untrue"...apparently), and most werewolves are actually just closet therians who get together on tuesday nights and play a version of "Musical Chairs" that involves a Tail somehow...


...uhhhhhhh...What? Image

Except when we are trying to be Funny, something just doesn't feel right about this.


If people read a Novel, or See a movie where the Werewolves look like Anthros, act like the patrons of a Furry Convention in their spare time when no one is looking, and are presented in a way where the audience is clearly supposed to feel sorry for them, as a racially discriminated against culture, and not really monsters At All, people are going to put 2 and 2 together.


...that Werewolves have now become the Mascot for pitiful and oppressed feeling people who think being called names and being misunderstood is the most painful thing in the world.



For whatever reason, I am reminded of a scene from "The Matrix", where Agent Smith is talking about how Humans perceive reality. He said that "Pain" defines our reality, and that the machines had to make the world of the Matrix as troublesome and cruel as the real world was before, because when they tried to make it a paradise, no one could believe it and they all tried to "WAKE UP".


With only a few exceptions, traditional lycanthropy was always either a tool of evil, or a curse forced upon, or born into someone, not at their will. One way or another, the impossible feat of metamorphosis was always balanced and coupled with some significant amount of Danger or Evil. I've said it before, and I'll say it again...social discrimination alone just DOES NOT CUT IT.

For our NEW version of werewolves, I just keep seeing, "ohh...that would be too inconvenient", "...that would make it Too Hard to not be discovered", "...I would not WANT it to be that hard...I would WANT it to be like a beautiful dream world where being a werewolf would make all of my dreams come true..."

PAIN......Fear...REAL Danger...and "Evil" in some form of another is really needed to make the situation, and the creature feel believable and real. IMHO



ONLY if a person has to overcome truly Difficult and Significant obstacles and challenges does it become something worth cheering about when the unlikely victory is achieved.


I am as anxious as everyone else to see a Werewolf HERO, who rises above the curse of his/her condition to become a really extraordinary being, instead of the Monster they almost became. Success stories like that..."beating the odds"...are some of my favorite kind. Image

...but it's not "Beating The Odds" and "Overcoming Obstacles" if 99% of people who become werewolves obtain almost absolute control over their lycanthropy with just a little bit of PRACTICE and the secret society of 'totally NOT scary' fellow tail-waggers giving them a few helpful hints. ...then being a werewolf becomes almost 'Normal', and little more than just a bit Weird.


The way they seem to be being made out now, unless you are the reincarnation of Adolf Hitler, you are just going to be a pathetic person hiding in the shadows, with SuperPowers that are used for nothing but playing secret games dreamed up on Furry Message boards, and the threat of being discovered is no more significant than being 'Gay' in the wrong neighborhood.

...not to downplay the threat of "Death by Lynching", but is that really all the danger is of being a Werewolf any more? ...Somebody might want to kill you?

Since when have the Werewolves been the ones running and hiding, and the paranoid regular people been the big, scary monsters?

That may be a nice, profound statement about human behavior...but after that, what the hell kind of fun is it to make Werewolves into something so Pathetic?

It doesn't matter how Uber Powerful they are when transformed, or how sharp their claws are... if ALL but only the most EVIL 1% of them behave like that. Image
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Post by Rhuen »

so you don't want werewolves to go down the same road as vampires about sums all that up right?

vampire=goth

werewolf=furre
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Post by Anubis »

I don't like that either where werewolves have turned into in essence furrries that can shapesift in human form.

How ever i do like the idea of werewolves of some what being in control of them selves.

In my stories the werewolves are somewhat a mix of both. They are beasts of instinct, fueled and driven by emotions and the basic primal instincts like Fight or flight, to mate, feed, dominate, ETC. They are not evil, but primal.

Like If a male feels the need to sate his need for a female he would go and claim one. The instinct to mate is over powering for any one who isnt experienced in handling such powerful needs.

A born werewolf with werewolf parents can teach their offspring how to manage such powerful emotions and desires, but a bitten werewolf who isn't taught how to manage it will easily fall victom to their own primal nature every time they shape shift.
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Post by Kelpten »

Ouch, direct hit to me. I have to admit that I've occationally had the same thoughts myself, but since they contradicted what I wanted I pushed them away. It's true that werewolves have begun to turn in a new direction away from the "evil" side, ignoring the old myths in favor of what would be more convenient. I suppose that most feel (or at least I do; I shouldn't speak for others) that the monster werewolf has been played out and this is a new view of them.

The truth for me is that I want to be able to transform into a wolf. Werewolves were the closest thing to that so I just started molding that closer to what I wanted. (Odd how easy it is to tell complete strangers the desires of your soul because you'll never meet them). I've never found the idea of killing humans in any situation in any way enticing. I could concede to involentary transformations and the gestalt form or anything else save that one detail. I suppose that's the main seperation between the old and new.

But here's another idea that might be of interest. Why not have both? You could have those who can control their lycanthropy and others who are the bloodthirsty beasts of yore, perhaps through two different strains of the virus or just through more dicipline. The conflict would then involve the "overcoming the curse" and "keep the community hidden" plus whatever conflicts would ensue from these two groups. Just a thought.

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Post by Terastas »

It's not some wild conspiracy to turn werewolves into an element of furry so much as a changing of the times. In some of the greatest horror movies of all time, the dark forces were not monsters, but human beings. Hannibal Lecter, Leatherface, Jigsaw -- they were just as human as you and I are. Horror isn't as simple as a human fighting a monster anymore -- Hollywood has recognized that we can be more monstrous than anything we could imagine.

The first step was recognizing humanity's capacity for evil. The second (and current) step is recognizing a monster's capacity for good. After all, everything we know about werewolves, vampires, zombies, etc. is fabricated from human legend. Who are we to say that the traditional werewolf is the correct one?

Vampires already have plenty of heroes. Heck, even the zombies have a hero of their own now. Why should werewolves be left out and remain stereotypical B-movie villains?

I'm sorry, but this whole "keep werewolf movies traditional and crappy" sentiment really pisses me off. People complain that all werewolf movies are total crap, then they have the nerve to fault anyone that tries to change that age-old formula for the werewolf B-movie.

Do you want a traditional werewolf movie, or do you want a good werewolf movie? You can't have both.
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Post by Templar »

Wow, fer once I agree with V.

I've also been seein' the slow swing away from the dangerous werewolf to the misunderstood anthro. I'm an old school werewolf fan. The thing is, at least to a major degree, supposed ta be scary. I understand and even like the idea of "well not all werewolves are inherently evil", but any an' all werewolves should be scarier than a group of drunk an' pissed off Hells Angels. An' that, take it from me folks, is one really bad scene.

Remember, the werewolf is supposed ta be the id, the beast inside, no longer chained down by the ego or superego. That don't mean that it's gotta be evil, or even unaware of the human part of its mind, but that don't make it an overgrown labrador retriever, either. Keep da danger factor in place, people![/i]
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Post by cumulusprotagonist »

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Maybe I am wrong...

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Post by Figarou »

cumulusprotagonist wrote:When I speak of racism I think of slavery and genocide and not name calling...

ok...how many times are you going to bring that up?

http://www.thepack.network/thepackboard ... 322#153322

http://www.thepack.network/thepackboard ... php?t=5295


We really don't need that all over this forum.
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Post by Anubis »

What is with you?

You have to turn every thing on racism? Not every body are hate mongers.

Also this has NOTHING to do with racism! We get your point you hate racists, now please get off your soap box and politely drop it.
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Post by JoshuaMadoc »

Well, i'm siding with Terastas.

A werewolf can be really f*** angry, but oftentimes that anger happens for a reason, even if that reason stems from mixing the human impulse of generating anger randomly, AKA "HEY GUYZ I'M PISSED FOR NO REASON WHATSOEVER!!! LOLOLOLOLOL".

Real monsters are completely devoid of any form of feeling. But monsters with feelings, conscience, instinct, etc. -- they might as well just be monsters in name and appearance only.

That's about it from me.

--

Interestingly, this subject arose right after i came across The Elephant Man's quote: "I am not an animal! I am a human being! I... am... a man!"

If this was worded differently...




...




And Cumulus, what the hell are you getting at? This isn't the thread to talk about OMGRACISM.
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Post by chubhound »

Terastas wrote:I'm sorry, but this whole "keep werewolf movies traditional and crappy" sentiment really pisses me off. People complain that all werewolf movies are total crap, then they have the nerve to fault anyone that tries to change that age-old formula for the werewolf B-movie.

Do you want a traditional werewolf movie, or do you want a good werewolf movie? You can't have both.
I gotta agree here (at least.....I think I do). On one hand there are the people here that complain that werewolves in werewolf movies are portrayed as nothing but mindless, blood-thirsty killers, and then there are the ones that are complaining that werewolves are turning into "super-powered furries" or something like that. So......which do you want? Personally, I'd like to think there's a nice middle ground between werewolves as fuzzy X-Men, and werewolves as the guy eating kids 1 night a month and spending the rest of the 28 days curled in a fetal position in the corner going "I just can't LIVE like this!!!" Cripes.....In that case, why not just swallow a silver bullet & be done with it. Just like those whiny vampires constantly ranting about the "curse" of immortality, but they never have the guts to stand outside facing East for a few hours.
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Re: Werewolves...Pitiful? *Rant*

Post by Midnight »

I see this whole "modern werewolf", for want of a better phrase, movement as introducing a note of much-needed realism into the whole... "werewolf experience", again for want of a better phrase. Nobody's taking away your spittle-flecked, evil, monstrous killers. Modern stories are just bringing a breath of fresh air into the genre for those of us who don't think of wolves as The Big Bad Wolf of folk tales, and don't see all shape-shifters as wicked witches or as Satan's minions.

For a start... there's nothing stopping an intelligent werewolf character from being at the same time a scary, terrible and awe-inspiring character. I don't see any call for werewolves to become pathetic, timid creatures, hiding away from the world. If that's your reading of what I've said, then either you're reading with an accent or else I'm typing with an accent because that's never something I've advocated, and I doubt too many others would have either.

I do see a bit of logical thought going into what would the reaction be to a werewolf if one was discovered in the real world. Do you really think people would be huddling in dark corners whispering about what they'd seen if they stumbled across a werewolf - even one of the evil killers you want to see? Hell no. Anyone in any fit state to would have been getting their shotgun out and looking to take down the bastard before it took them down. And it wouldn't matter one bit whether it spent every full moon ripping babies from cots, or if it was a SNAWW who only ever ate humanely killed rabbits because of the damage they do to the environment. It would be a trophy before anyone could say "two game wardens, seven hunters and a cow".

And no matter how evil the werewolf is... in a realistic world, there'll be people sick enough to think of it as a hero. Fred Phelps will go on TV saying about how the werewolf is his god's punishment on whichever country cops it. Scum gangs will start wearing wolf insignia the same way that the thugs in my day went in for swastikas and Nazi regalia.

So, if someone is wanting to tell a werewolf story in a realistic world... the werewolves need to be intelligent enough to hide their light under a bushel. Because, no matter how awe-inspiring they are... they're just tomorrow's trophy to anyone with a shotgun and their mother's best spoons.
Templar wrote:I understand and even like the idea of "well not all werewolves are inherently evil", but any an' all werewolves should be scarier than a group of drunk an' pissed off Hells Angels. An' that, take it from me folks, is one really bad scene.

Remember, the werewolf is supposed ta be the id, the beast inside, no longer chained down by the ego or superego. That don't mean that it's gotta be evil, or even unaware of the human part of its mind, but that don't make it an overgrown labrador retriever, either. Keep da danger factor in place, people!
I don't disagree with anything here... I just think the whole old-fashioned "cursed evil monster" werewolves are way old-fashioned.
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Post by Kelpten »

Not only that, but it seems unrealistic to me that a werewolf would become evil just because of a bite. Primal instincts, sure that's fine, but the intellegence not to eat humans because they have big guns is something found in even regular wolves, so shouldn't are werewolves be at least that smart? Also, not all werewolves would be good either. Think of it this way... you hand out a gun to everyone in a city. Some people wouldn't think of using it, others will do target practice, some will use it to murder. Same deal with werewolves; they're people with primal instincts, but they still have the same moral center before they were bitten, be that good or bad.
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Post by TakeWalker »

I think we can step away from "all werewolves are inherently monsters" to "all werewolves are going to be viewed by the populace as monsters, whether they are or not". I think that's what we're trying to go for, anyway. It's just that enough people around here like werewolves a lot and, like you, want to see the "werewolf hero". So we collectively overdo it.

Which isn't to say I don't hear you. You could replace every instance of "werewolf" in the first post with "dragon" and get a more-or-less-coherent and completely true second rant. Dragon furries are known -- stereotypically, yes -- for being whiny emo kids who chose a large, fearsome creature as their persona in order to offset their lack of self-esteem. It's honestly a fairly comical situation, all these huge, flesh-eating beasts that have for centuries terrorized Western culture sitting around complaining about how their parents hate them. Same thing with werewolves here.

You gotta give the kids some credit. Teenage years are a difficult time, full of changes and stressors and the need to belong and the need to define yourself. Not everyone can handle it in the same fashion. When you were a kid, you did things that you would consider completely retarded today; I know, because I sure did, we all did. And some of us grew out of that and some of us didn't, and some of that latter category metamorphosed their online personas into something a little more mature and some didn't.

That's completely my feeling on the subject. I think. I hope it makes sense.
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Post by Terastas »

TakeWalker wrote:I think we can step away from "all werewolves are inherently monsters" to "all werewolves are going to be viewed by the populace as monsters, whether they are or not". I think that's what we're trying to go for, anyway.
It's what I was going for.

The middle ground would be recognizing that werewolves were categorized as monsters but are not naturally evil, rather that they have the same capacity for good and evil that humans have. The good werewolves are just getting more attention on this forum because we all know what an evil werewolf looks like. So far, the evil werewolf is all we've ever seen.
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Post by Doruk Golcu »

Not necessarily... We haven't seen that many 'evil' werewolves yet, most of what we have seen was 'mindless' werewolves... there obviously were exceptions...

I think what Vuldari is getting at is that we are losing the 'dark' side of being a werewolf, or externalizing it. Now, there is nothing inherently bad, or dangerous, or morally questionable about being a werewolf; the only difficulty of being one becomes how you will be perceived by the society. Hence, it becomes a neat daydream for our typical angsty teen (and we all have been one at one point, c'mon, admit it! Yes, you!). The big moral dilemma of the earlier 'Wolfman' type movies was that this regular person, boy-next-door, neither evil nor good, had to go through times where he literally became a monster and ripped people apart. His helplessness in stopping this process was what made those movies watchable.

Now, admittedly, this is now old and formulaic. I do agree that we need something new, but I don't think the 'werewolves are just people that can take the shape of wolves (or human-wolf hybrids, you get the point)' makes it interesting enough. Why do we care for that? If we want to make a statement about oppressed minorities, we can do that without making them werewolves (or supernatural in any way at all). the fact that those creatures can turn into wolves becaomes incidental, doesn't add anything to the story. Admittedly there are a few books that used the idea, and used it nicely, but it is only one possible way, and not necessarily the best way.

So, what else can be done with werewolves? I don't have a lot of ideas there (I never claimed to be a writer), but I think they need more mystique... They need more of a quality of 'going bump in the night' rather than 'jumps roaring out of the dark' or 'sulking sadly in the dark'... I think 'Romasanta' and 'Company of the Wolves' went into this direction somewhat. Of course, they didn't end up being the most marketable movies....
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Post by Vuldari »

#1 - Traditional Style werewolf movies have not been bad because the entire 'cocept' is old and tired... it's because they have all been terrible movies, with awful acting, dialog, and weak plot-development. I am still convinced that there is room, and a NEED for someone to get it 'Right' and to make a genuinely Good, Traditional Werewolf story, as a defining example of the genre.

#2 - "Evil" is a concept that can be interpreted in a number of ways. Making a person inexplicably have a desire to viciously Murder their most near and dear loved ones is only one cliche way of manifesting it. Another could be an intinctual drive to make others into werewolves, combined with a significantly LOW survival rate for bitten hosts. Evil is not always intended to be evil, but becomes so in result none-the-less. Giving Werewolves a hyperactive "Fight or Flight" response when transformed, regardless of whether the change was intentional or triggered involuntarily, could make werewolves inescapably prone to cause mayhem and chaos when startled or endangered...out of a simple reaction of "self-defense". There is nothing inherantly "Evil" about protecting oneself, or ones loved ones for that matter, but sometimes evil can and will come of it, whether intended or not.

I think someone here made a good point in saying, roughly, that what is happening here is that a popular idea is being taken Too Far as an after-effect of all of us proposing it at the same time in a united, collective voice, as we have all been thinking the same thing.
(Yes, that includes me too)

"What if it were possible for a Werewolf to become/remain GOOD?"

What all of us, including myself, seem to be hungering for is a Werewolf story where the Lycanthrope is the HERO of the story, rather than the mindless, shallow VILLAIN...and for an ending other than, "...the monter is destroyed. THE END."
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Post by Figarou »

Doruk Golcu wrote:
So, what else can be done with werewolves?
I think what can be done has been done in comics, novels, TV episodes, cartoons, and a few films.

Most of it is horror/gore in films. But you can find comedy. Its mostly in cartoons. (Like FangFace) Teenwolf is the only film I can think of thats comedy.

You want a werewolf to be a hero/good guy fighting evil? Read a comic. Mystery? A few TV episodes has that. (Like X-files, Dr. Who. ETC.) There was that "werewolf" series on TV. It reminded me of the Incredible Hulk series staring Bill Bixby.

You can only do so much with the werewolf. And no matter where one shows up......its always using the old folklore tales. Full moon...guy changes...has no control...goes on a rampage....ETC.

You rarely see werewolves with full control of thier abilities on film. Mostly in comics. Maybe we will be seeing that in films in the near future. :D
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Post by Vuldari »

( Contiued from previous post. Wii ran out of text memory... )

I'm all FOR that... but I maintain the stubborn insistence that in any GOOD Werewolf story, a Lycanthropes greatest enemy and challenge is, and always has been THEMSELVES. ...and not the Mean, Mean, Hyoomans who have it in for them.

The Lycanthropic condition, by my definition, is a literally manifested instance of the Never-Ending struggle between civility and, "The Beast Within".
In some instances, the person is surrendering to that side of themself entirely, such as in those legends in which MAN forms pacts with demons to obtain that power. In others, it is a person who otherwise desires to be good, but is almost constantly tempted and lured into irresponsible and/or vicious behavior by the primal and inherantly selfish drives they feel inside.

It just is not a Werewolf to me if there is no struggle. Even if the character in question has succeeded in remaining victorious in that struggle for an entire lifetime, and appears to be a model of self-control and good behavior, there NEEDS to be that sense that they are, and always have been, at risk of loosing themselves to their primal impulses at almost any moment for the creature and character to remain true to the essence of what a Lycanthrope is supposed to be.

A person who was able to achieve that feat, above such cruel and seemingly impossible odds, I think would be a hero, (no need for night time crimefighting to be called a "Hero"), worth CHEERING for.

There is no need to turn werewolves into overly advantaged, (superior in every phisical and psychological way to ordinary humans), mild mannered, easy-going wusses in order to make them the Good-Guys in a story.

If a werewolf, after only a few years of practice, is just so much better than an ordinary Human, with no side-effects or struggles At All, how could ANYONE possibly relate or take them seriously?
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Post by Kiri-Ryu »

*Places 2 cents on the table*
I pretty much agree with what Vuldari said. Heroes need obsicles to overcome otherwise they aren't really good heroes. And in your average modern-day werewolf story, a human with guns and a serious pet-peve against anything fuzzy facing off against your misunderstood werewolf that can change at will, keep control of his forms at all times with uber leet strength & regeneration just isn't going to cut it for me. That being said though, I don't like the idea of the mindless slavering beast that kills people because they're there.

One thing we have to remember, is that the old view on Were/wolves was a fear of something that people didn't understand. Wolves back in ye olde dayes were seen as, well, mindless slaveing beasts that killed people and ther livestock, spawning from the forest to torment us living folk, and werewolves were based on that idea, but with more of a taste for human flest than animal. Now days we know a lot more about wolf behaviour, so we should be able to incorporate that into the modern day werewolf idea.

I see them as beings driven by wolf instinct and extreme emotion, with reason and common sense in the back seat yelling out but not always being heard. For example, a burglar might break into a werewolf's house. (Not really a smart thing to do, but hey) As a human, he's probably hide and call the police, or he was feeling pretty brave, confronting the thief directly and possibly knocking him out. If he was in Gestalt, he'd see it as someone intruding on his territory. Which, depending on his current emotional level, could mean scaring the hell out of the poor thief with an intimidating growl, or ripping the poor bugger limb from limb. Of course, with years of practice, one could probably take control of this base instinct. (Because I absolutely lothe the idea of a werewolf not having at least some control of their ability) But the instinct will always be there, influencing his actions in small ways, and occasionally breaking though and making him do something that he proabaly shouldn't have.
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Post by Vuldari »

Kiri-Ryu wrote:... in your average modern-day werewolf story, a human with guns and a serious pet-peve against anything fuzzy facing off against your misunderstood werewolf that can change at will, keep control of his forms at all times with uber leet strength & regeneration just isn't going to cut it for me.
Unless it's a battle frenzied Comic-Book/Anime Universe where everyone is trying to kill each other every day, and the guy with guns is a 7-foot tall, musclebound FREAK who carries a rapid-fire rocket launcher as his small Sidearm, in which case the constant threat of death and worldwide Armageddon would probably be enough. Image
Kiri-Ryu wrote:That being said though, I don't like the idea of the mindless slavering beast that kills people because they're there.
In most cases, neither do I. ...though I think the plot element of involuntary murderous tendencies remains very valuable to the genre of 'Psychological Horror', and should not be entirely tossed out so readily.
Kiri-Ryu wrote:One thing we have to remember, is that the old view on Were/wolves was a fear of something that people didn't understand. Wolves back in ye olde dayes were seen as, well, mindless slaveing beasts that killed people and ther livestock, spawning from the forest to torment us living folk, and werewolves were based on that idea, but with more of a taste for human flest than animal. Now days we know a lot more about wolf behaviour, so we should be able to incorporate that into the modern day werewolf idea.

I see them as beings driven by wolf instinct and extreme emotion, with reason and common sense in the back seat yelling out but not always being heard. For example, a burglar might break into a werewolf's house. (Not really a smart thing to do, but hey) As a human, he's probably hide and call the police, or he was feeling pretty brave, confronting the thief directly and possibly knocking him out. If he was in Gestalt, he'd see it as someone intruding on his territory. Which, depending on his current emotional level, could mean scaring the hell out of the poor thief with an intimidating growl, or ripping the poor bugger limb from limb.
Now this is more or less in line with my own perspective on the subject of "Control", and an appropriate level of a Lack-Of.
Kiri-Ryu wrote:Of course, with years of practice, one could probably take control of this base instinct. (Because I absolutely lothe the idea of a werewolf not having at least some control of their ability) But the instinct will always be there, influencing his actions in small ways, and occasionally breaking though and making him do something that he probably shouldn't have.
Now I am just splitting hairs, but I disagree with the phrasing and concept of "Taking Control" of ones instincts. IMHO, that is IMPOSSIBLE, whether you are talking about werewolf instincts, or even your regular HUMAN ones.

Varying levels of 'Discipline' and Self-Control is one thing...but I think it is simply crossing the line to ever claim to have fully "Taken Control" of it.

...unless you are talking about a super-exceptional Werewolf GURU, who has spent his/her entire LIFETIME dedicated to mastering and taming their inner-beast. ...but not any old ORDINARY person/werewolf.
Please Forgive the Occasional Outburst of my Inner Sage ... for he is Oblivious to Sarcasm, and not Easily Silenced.

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Post by RedEye »

A well taken point: but the Werewolf stories themselves (historical ones) are less naturally violent than ones where someone has taken the Wolf within as a means of "evening the score" for some dispute or feeling of being deprived of something.
Historically, there are stories of people who did some sort of magic or other and became Lycanthropes. In some cases, they are out of control, but in some cases they are quite deliberate in their actions.
Now, while I cannot condemn the idea of Were's as some sort of Furry Ideation, niether can I support it.
My take is that they would be a separate sort of race, with the same sort of good and evil types found in all the other races of man; as well as the sub categories of philosophy and religious belief.
Furrys are a different phenomenon entirely; being for the most part one or two dimensional reflections of their creators. Werewolves are the mixture of two different but similar cultures: one Smoothskin Human, one Furskin Wulfen.
The Human group and the Wolf Pack. Now, mix them nicely and you get a Werewolf: Part Human, Part Wolf; with the mental attitudes that prevail in both species blended together into one decidedly scary whole.
I've used a "separate people" concept and found it works. They are a People who hide (shyness is a Wolf trait) and form communities (another Wolf trait).
As for hiding from the big bad Humans...fifty years ago, the American South, Werewolf as "Negro"*. A lot of these humans hid from other humans simply because they had the wrong skin color.
Humans do not tend to play well with others, if those others are different.
That is a given...unfortunately.
I agree that the cartooney Werewolf, angst-ridden and just wanting to be your friend is not very sensible, but there is a middle ground.
They are hiding because they are afraid of people, and because they are a weak population; as in a small population. They hide beause they don't want to risk themselves to anyone that isn't either just like them...or is a trusted friend. There are numerous ethnicities that do this to this day, so as not to be swallowed up by the larger majority.
They can be as noble, or as ignoble as anyone else: because they are US, with two inch fangs and a tail.
You take the similar position that the Furry-types do: They must be such and such, and conform to a rigid set of guidelines. That's fine for a rant, but not to describe an occult species like Were's. Unless there is a variation of personalities and natures like that found in either Human or Wolf societies, things fall apart.
Of course, there is the Wulfen urge to rip-it-apart-and-eat-it; but if we see any Humanity here, there is a controlling factor involved. I'd see them as rough, but refined; and capable of being either as the situation requires.
Look at the Wolf Pack: The Alpha is a harsh taskmaster, but is also an excellent manager, and unquestioned leader. Why not a similar sort of mindset in a Werewolf?
Ultimately, if they are victims; it is of themselves...not Humankind.
And...you brought up several good points that needed saying. Good!
*Sorry, don't mean to offend, but that was the only appropriate word for the time illustrated.
RedEye: The Wulf and writer who might really be a Kitsune...
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Post by Terastas »

Vuldari wrote:( Contiued from previous post. Wii ran out of text memory... )

I'm all FOR that... but I maintain the stubborn insistence that in any GOOD Werewolf story, a Lycanthropes greatest enemy and challenge is, and always has been THEMSELVES. ...and not the Mean, Mean, Hyoomans who have it in for them.

The Lycanthropic condition, by my definition, is a literally manifested instance of the Never-Ending struggle between civility and, "The Beast Within".
You talk as if dealing with one's anger isn't a human trait.

Lets face it, we scare ourselves and each other better than any B-movie monster could. Applying a sense of humanity to the werewolf might actually be an improvement to the levels of horror. When Freeborn finally comes out, it won't surprise me if it is best remembered, not for the touching story of the Jack, but for the cold almost mafia-like precision of Maxwell.

We all know what it is like to care for another. We all know what it's like to be discriminated against. We all know what it's like to feel anger boiling up inside us. And we all know what it's like to be afraid. Why can't a werewolf experience that too?
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Post by Kelpten »

Well, as my half-crazed 10th grade English teacher Mr. Cantrell would say...Use the Dialectical Method!

Thesis: Werewolves are mindless killers with no control.
Antithesis: Werewolves are in complete control and missunderstood

Synthesis: The perfect in between.

Of course, we still have to find that perfect balance. My own opinion (after reading some of these posts it changed) would be close to what Kiri-Ryu said, I suppose, especially because that presents a nice internal conflict playing in to "is man naturally good/evil" but at the same time I don't like the idea of the wolf being portrayed as the evil side. Perhaps if you made clear that it was a combination of man's own evil desires cuppled with the primal impulses of the wolf. Aw well, a good compromise leaves both sides angry.
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