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... eeegghh ... I wouldn't touch that pile of crap.

S'all gonna explode in everyone's face.

it shouldn't be allowed, they're two different things. making a comic in which you depict a Religious icon as a terrorist is simply a way of expressing an opinion. making a comic about the holocaust... is just pointless nd stupid. two very different things...

Darum wrote:it shouldn't be allowed

It will be allowed. It's a free speech tit-for-tat game...

Darum wrote:making a comic in which you depict a Religious icon as a terrorist is simply a way of expressing an opinion. making a comic about the holocaust... is just pointless nd stupid.

• Making a comic about anything is a simple way of expression.
• Pick any sensitive cultural person, figure, divine being, horrific incident, mass suicide, slaughter, killing of innocents, geocide, or any other tender cultural issue and someone has a humorous opinion about it.
• Opinion is opinion is opinion. And you might not agree with it, and it might be pointless and stupid or it might be well endowed and okay to do, but people will still do it no matter what.
• To the person who finds certain humor offensive there is little to justify it.
• People are different. You are one person, from one culture, with a opinion on that one subject. Someone, from another culture, with another opinion on that subject will have a different take on it.

Darum wrote: two very different things...

Not really.

They're part of each culture. Sensetive parts of each culture. The only difference is one's a mass of people and the other's a divine figure.

Deeply religious people don't need to be taunted because people want to wave around free speech. Just like the Holocaust shouldn't be made humorous for the sake of a tit-for-tat issue.

At the same time we're picking on nations, stirring politics, and enflaming the radicals of the world... nothing more.

The kicker is that there is no productivity in what's going on and that's what's so idiotic about this.

Yeesh!! What next!?

Timber-WoIf wrote:Sigh...

Same here....

Darum wrote:it shouldn't be allowed, they're two different things. making a comic in which you depict a Religious icon as a terrorist is simply a way of expressing an opinion. making a comic about the holocaust... is just pointless nd stupid. two very different things...

They may be two different things...but they both generate the same feelings from the people who are being targeted.

The average Christian's feelings if Jesus were ridiculed would be equal to the feelings a Jew would experience if the Holocaust were ridiculed. So, I can understand where the believers in Mohammed are coming from.

In this situation, everyone is wrong. The Dutch (or whoever it was) should have known better than to make fun of a person that so many felt so strongly about, and the Muslims (?) shouldn't stoop to their level (although, I can completely see where they're coming from...if someone ridiculed my deity, I'd want to hit them where it hurts too).

Frankly, I don't think making fun of the holocaust is any worse than making fun of a religious figure.

Very mixed feelings about this. But, ultimately, the Islamics have made their point.

But, riots and murder are no way to protest the satirical remark. If anything, that's just proving it right.

This cannot be reduced to a "right and wrong," but I do have to point out the following opinions:

Yes, attacking an entire religion is making a generalization.

But, the Holocaust was not just about a religion. It was about the genocide of millions of people.

A religious conviction by comparison is an abstraction. A religion is a belief system, and a belief system should be able to stand up to scrutiny and challenges. If a belief system cannot respond appropriately to challenges to its internal consistancy, then that system is flawed. I've personally rejected long-held deep beliefs, because they didn't fit what I saw in the real world. Some call this notion science, while others prefer the phrase "making sense."

The brutal murder of millions of people and torture of millions more, by comparison, is not an abstraction at all. It's a documented fact. While I believe that one should have a certain index of skepticism, there's also a point at which evidence overwhelms. There are survivors. There are photographs. There are corpses lying in shallow graves. There's even a lamp made of human skin. All the conspiracy theories that claim that it didn't happen are by comparison pretty contrived, in the realm of pseudoscience.

If you want us to quit thinking of you as terrorists, then quit BEING TERRORISTS! Maybe we'll see you as less violent if you quit pointing that gun to our head.

As a side note, there's a lot of Islamics--the majority in fact--who aren't terrorists. Some are still bothered by the article, but they're not bombing people over it. There's one Islamic resident of Denmark who made very vocal her dislike of seeing her country's flag burned over it. There's a lot of Muslims out there who are really getting sick and tired of terrorists screwing up their religion's name, including most of the world's repsected Islamic clerics.

Oh, and one more thing that Cathey just pointed out. Most of the Danes aren't Jewish. Here in America, going after the wrong target is OUR job.

Scott Gardener wrote: But, the Holocaust was not just about a religion. It was about the genocide of millions of people.

I just wanted to add some additional comments to this.

Keep in mind, the Holocaust was more about eugenics (which isn't by default a bad thing) than it was about religion. The Jews weren't killed because they were Jewish, they were killed because they didn't conform to certain physical standards which had been set forth as the ideal. Also, we must remember that a massive amount of the people who died during the holocaust were not Jews at all.

The way I see it, it wasn't really a genocide. After all, Jews still exist.

Whats happening in simolia is genocide.

The Danes had NO right to depict Mohamed just as the Islams have NO right to depict the holocaust. Pretty much it's like one kid pinched the other and then the kid pinched him back.

Jarden wrote:The Danes had NO right to depict Mohamed just as the Islams have NO right to depict the holocaust. Pretty much it's like one kid pinched the other and then the kid pinched him back.

Yeah, this pretty much sums it up.

What bothers me is when people think it's ok for the Danes to ridicule Mohammed, but the Islams are so damned offensive for making fun of the holocaust. BOTH are very wrong and highly inconsiderate.

Jarden wrote:The Danes had NO right to depict Mohamed just as the Islams have NO right to depict the holocaust. Pretty much it's like one kid pinched the other and then the kid pinched him back.

I disagree socially to agree realisticly.

Rights: Something we have to justify our actions, our possessions, and/or our what-have-you in a culture because culture allots different boundaries than nature.

First of: No rights really exist. We have no rights to anything, actually. But social culture says we do indeed have rights but for a right to be exclusive enough to be a right it would have to be a right that cannot be taken away.

The rights we construct as a culture are rights that can indeed be surpressed; either culturally or by just killing us or finding some other way to getting people to stop. Thus they are NOT true rights.

Kind of scary if you ever actually think about it.

Yet the social world says we do indeed have Rights.

Yet if socialized world says there is such a right as freedom of speech, but we censored a few things, then it's obviously not a right. So people make a mess of things.

This is the age old catch twenty two of Freedom of Speech -- things said are not always what we want to hear or others want to hear, but in order to find the all elusive 'Truth' we have to look at all things being said.

The irony is that Truth is something built on the hinges of which way you look out or into things from where you're standing. What?! Truth is not one simple fact? Oish... comlicated, eh?

Saying people have no right is true. But the cultural fact is ... culture will allow it.

Irregardless of whether or not people feel it's wrong, or incorrect, or morally compromising.

So is marrying off twelve year old girls in arranged marriages -- but the irony is, our perspective is skewed. Like everyone elses.

I mean, wouldn't it be to your horror to find out a lot of those twelve year old girls end up happily married and happy to enter said marrage?
SURPRISE!

This is a Journalistic Political Game. Nobody plays fair and everybody does it to piss people off...

Right and wrong take a tumble, but the fact is it all just lands in the stupid bin of politics and why we never EVER should trust the news.

Ink wrote:

Jarden wrote:The Danes had NO right to depict Mohamed just as the Islams have NO right to depict the holocaust. Pretty much it's like one kid pinched the other and then the kid pinched him back.

I disagree socially to agree realisticly.

Rights: Something we have to justify our actions, our possessions, and/or our what-have-you in a culture because culture allots different boundaries than nature.

First of: No rights really exist. We have no rights to anything, actually. But social culture says we do indeed have rights but for a right to be exclusive enough to be a right it would have to be a right that cannot be taken away.

The rights we construct as a culture are rights that can indeed be surpressed; either culturally or by just killing us or finding some other way to getting people to stop. Thus they are NOT true rights.

Kind of scary if you ever actually think about it.

Yet the social world says we do indeed have Rights.

Yet if socialized world says there is such a right as freedom of speech, but we censored a few things, then it's obviously not a right. So people make a mess of things.

This is the age old catch twenty two of Freedom of Speech -- things said are not always what we want to hear or others want to hear, but in order to find the all elusive 'Truth' we have to look at all things being said.

The irony is that Truth is something built on the hinges of which way you look out or into things from where you're standing. What?! Truth is not one simple fact? Oish... comlicated, eh?

Saying people have no right is true. But the cultural fact is ... culture will allow it.

Irregardless of whether or not people feel it's wrong, or incorrect, or morally compromising.

So is marrying off twelve year old girls in arranged marriages -- but the irony is, our perspective is skewed. Like everyone elses.

I mean, wouldn't it be to your horror to find out a lot of those twelve year old girls end up happily married and happy to enter said marrage?
SURPRISE!

This is a Journalistic Political Game. Nobody plays fair and everybody does it to piss people off...

Right and wrong take a tumble, but the fact is it all just lands in the stupid bin of politics and why we never EVER should trust the news.

i think it's a horrible thing to make fun of in my oppinion thats no differen't than paste farting noises on the people that jumped off the twin towers on 9/11.

i don't mean to be narrowminded or what ever, but i don't believe that you are actualy condoning this. sure you can do it but it dosen't make it right! its like copyrighting someone else's uncopyrighted work. you can do it doesn't make it right. i mean hundreds of people died for just being jewish, they've been tortured, enslaved, and murdered. i read horror stories on what goes on in a concitration camp. yeah the first admenment is good but you can go waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay too far! like people wrote manuals on how to kill people, posted scimatics on how to make a bomb.

even it's legal it still doesn't makes it right!!!!!!!!

Anubis wrote: i don't mean to be narrowminded or what ever, but i don't believe that you are actualy condoning this. sure you can do it but it dosen't make it right! its like copyrighting someone else's uncopyrighted work. you can do it doesn't make it right. i mean hundreds of people died for just being jewish, they've been tortured, enslaved, and murdered. i read horror stories on what goes on in a concitration camp. yeah the first admenment is good but you can go waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay too far! like people wrote manuals on how to kill people, posted scimatics on how to make a bomb.

even it's legal it still doesn't makes it right!!!!!!!!

Clarification: They weren't killed because they were Jewish. They were killed because they had brown hair, and many of them wore glasses, and they had a couple of other physical traits that Hitler didn't want. So many people forget that Jews were hardly the only ones killed. It just so happens that almost all of the people who were Jews didn't conform to the physical standards set forth, but there were many non-Jews who didn't conform either. Basically, the holocaust is one guy taking a good idea (eugenics) and going to extremes with it.

Anyway, that's why a lot of people from Germany are blonde with blue eyes.

May the Iranian prez fester in Tiamat's ovaries. He's a boneheaded liar. It is a cheap shot, it's puerile, it'll show the world that he and everyone else who participates in this stunt couldn't sort their brainbox from their compost bin. Keep feeding them rope, let them hang themselves, just like the other mouthbreathers who go around saying "The Holocaust didn't happen."

Anubis wrote: i think it's a horrible thing to make fun of in my oppinion thats no differen't than paste farting noises on the people that jumped off the twin towers on 9/11.

i don't mean to be narrowminded or what ever, but i don't believe that you are actualy condoning this. sure you can do it but it dosen't make it right! its like copyrighting someone else's uncopyrighted work. you can do it doesn't make it right. i mean hundreds of people died for just being jewish, they've been tortured, enslaved, and murdered. i read horror stories on what goes on in a concitration camp. yeah the first admenment is good but you can go waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay too far! like people wrote manuals on how to kill people, posted scimatics on how to make a bomb.

even it's legal it still doesn't makes it right!!!!!!!!

Where did you come to the conclusion I was condoning this?

Do what you will but DO NOT put words in my mouth.

And before you start throwing out accusations -- read my posts, don't interpret them in your own way, READ them before you have something to squirm and thrash about!

I do not agree with it but I sure as hell am not going to brandish my fist at Freedom Of Speech and blame it for it's misuse. That's juvenile, it's like going, "The spoon! Blame the spoon as to why the woman is fat!"

And I'm not going to say they shouldn't do it because that would go against EVERYTHING that's a granted cultural right. Which are bigger than your ideas of right and wrong. Don't constrew this to be association with the opposition, just understand that there is a middle ground where I can agree with the fact they have the freedom of speech and disagree with what's morally okay to do and not do. Those are two different arguements, however.

People need to get over the ideals of right and wrong, in the end they're ideals not realities.

Right and wrong get tangled up in someone trying to sell you a good idea -- be it 'save the wolves' or 'you need to buy this vaccum cleaner'...

All because there's good reasons to buy into all the fads. Especially if your pocket book or attention has anything to do with it.

But at least realize Free Speech is the thing that's allowing not just me to gab but yourself to antagonize me.

Appreciate it if it's only for that fact.

Renorei wrote: Clarification: They weren't killed because they were Jewish. They were killed because they had brown hair, and many of them wore glasses, and they had a couple of other physical traits that Hitler didn't want. So many people forget that Jews were hardly the only ones killed. It just so happens that almost all of the people who were Jews didn't conform to the physical standards set forth, but there were many non-Jews who didn't conform either. Basically, the holocaust is one guy taking a good idea (eugenics) and going to extremes with it.

Anyway, that's why a lot of people from Germany are blonde with blue eyes.

Wow, careful with the things you're saying, Renorei!

I agree with you that the Jews weren't the only ones killed during Second World War and that the victims of the Holocaust were only Jews, too.

But saying that this was just because of they didn't fit into the 'eugenic standards' is just plain wrong! You are stating the same prejudices that Hitler used to make the jews to his scapegoats! There were as many 'true germans' who didn't fit into this standards either - look at Hitler himself! little bastard - and who weren't killed. The Jews were killed because they were Jews and that's the truth!

And your statement that the Holocaust is just the perverted version of a good idea isn't just wrong - it's dangerous! Eugenics are NO good idea. They weren't and they aren't, no matter what benefits we can get from them, because they always bear the danger that some pervert them!

Forgive me if I sound harsh - but I have to fight daily with this past you are talking about! - and it is a prejudice that many germans a blonde and have blue eyes ... the reality is very different from Hollywood Movie perceptions!

Grayheart wrote: But saying that this was just because of they didn't fit into the 'eugenic standards' is just plain wrong! You are stating the same prejudices that Hitler used to make the jews to his scapegoats! There were as many 'true germans' who didn't fit into this standards either - look at Hitler himself! little bastard - and who weren't killed. The Jews were killed because they were Jews and that's the truth!

If indeed this is the case, then why on earth would he have killed anyone else besides Jews? Many true Germans who didn't conform to the standards were killed as well. Ultimately, the Holocaust was Hitler's effort to create a 'master race' of humans.

Grayheart wrote:And your statement that the Holocaust is just the perverted version of a good idea isn't just wrong - it's dangerous! Eugenics are NO good idea. They weren't and they aren't, no matter what benefits we can get from them, because they always bear the danger that some pervert them!

There are plenty of good ideas that can easily be perverted...but that alone doesn't make them bad ideas.

Come to think of it...EVERYTHING can be perverted in some way. Does that make EVERYTHING a bad idea?

The truth is, if done right, eugenics has the potential to help us A LOT. Just because a handful of people might try to screw it up, doesn't mean the rest of us shouldn't be able to benefit from it.

Grayheart wrote: - and it is a prejudice that many germans a blonde and have blue eyes ... the reality is very different from Hollywood Movie perceptions!

Well, I'm pretty sure that a greater percentage of Germans have blonde hair than do the people in other mainly caucasion countries.