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nice dog, fredriksam when i'm going to move out i'm going to adopt a pair of wolfdog hybreds.

(but for some reason i feel like i've seen those pictures before )

Anubis wrote:when i'm going to move out i'm going to adopt a pair of wolfdog hybreds.

That's a bad idea for so many reasons, but trying to convince you not to do that would be dragging this off topic.

Anyway, nice pictures fredriksam. Did you take those yourself?

Set wrote:

Anubis wrote:when i'm going to move out i'm going to adopt a pair of wolfdog hybreds.

That's a bad idea for so many reasons, but trying to convince you not to do that would be dragging this off topic.

Anyway, nice pictures fredriksam. Did you take those yourself?

Off topic is what the 'net is for. We wouldn't learn anything if we were always focused.

Anubis, please at least do some research. Wolves, half-wolves and even possibly some lower orders are not pets.

fredriksam, yeah, realtively nice pictures, good job on them, and that's a nice looking dog.

I did quite a bit of reasurch on this manner. i'm going to move out in the countery, going to buy place with a lot of propperty and so they can have a place to run around in and build a high fence so they won't get out. also it away from people so they won't harm my neibors and my niebors won't hurt them, and such i know they are pretty much wild animals, trust me. i know what i'm getting into.

Then you know that you'll also have to sink that fence several feet into the ground in an attempt (after all, there are no guarantees) to keep them (more than one? Biting off MUCH more than you can chew eh?) from digging out. Many animals are quite good little escape artists, and the wilder they are the better they are at it. You'll have your hands full.

And you should also know then that you'll have to put up with howling. Lots of it. At three in the morning, when you're trying to sleep.

Anubis wrote:i know what i'm getting into.

No, I don't think you do.

Set wrote:Then you know that you'll also have to sink that fence several feet into the ground in an attempt (after all, there are no guarantees) to keep them (more than one? Biting off MUCH more than you can chew eh?) from digging out. Many animals are quite good little escape artists, and the wilder they are the better they are at it. You'll have your hands full.

And you should also know then that you'll have to put up with howling. Lots of it. At three in the morning, when you're trying to sleep.

Anubis wrote:i know what i'm getting into.

No, I don't think you do.

yes i do, i know they are i'm planning to get a chainlink fence that is 8ft high and goes about 3ft underground, and the reason i'm getting two because most of the reasorces i've read says that i need to get two in order to prevent some behavior problems.

Beautiful, beautiful dog.

I like dogs, a lot... I especially love large breed dogs but they have to be working dogs as well.

Anubis wrote:when i'm going to move out i'm going to adopt a pair of wolfdog hybreds.

As for Anibus...

As someone who's seen the damage of Wolf-Hybrids in their neighborhood, had parents who lived with them, and seen the joys of them there's something I want to say:

Most areas, due to the growing 'fad' of owning such creatures, have begun making legislation to ban these 'dogs' from most local areas by using Federal, State and Local level Legislation.

Attacks in the last decade by Wolf-Dog crosses have been brought to light a monumental interest in this subject. It's a huge and ongoing issue as to whether these animals of human tampering should be allowed existance in our backyards.

There is no way to tell the true difference between an all out wolf or a wolfdog cross many times. This can often lead to mis-identification. Physical and behavioral characteristics will tip people off, however. Understand that such animals which exhibit such behavior or physicality may be taken and put down if they violate Federal, State, Regional or Local laws.

Understand that if neighbors or joggers or people complain that you are housing a WOLF it can and will be taken. Wolves are protected and if you are caught housing one and cannot prove it is a wolfdog (breeding proof of parentage, ex. DNA conformation of the domestic animal parentage) it CAN BE TAKEN.

People in your area who are scared and/or worried can become a local nightmare to owners in this fashion. And just because federal law doesn't say anything about wolf-dogs, the mistake of a wolf-dog as a wolf will cost you even more.

There are very few people willing to undertake the risk of rescuing animals if they are confiscated. No one should be owning or breeding illegally in a state for the novelty of a 'cool' creature by pet-owner standards today. Especially when the animal will suffer the concequences in the end for human actions.

Plus, most vets cannot and will not treat WolfDogs, even for yearly vaccinations of rabies and distemper. There also have been no studies that state whether or not any medicinal items used on your average domestic dog will function in a wolfhybrid's system. Without proper permits enlisted because of recent lawsuits Vets cannot and will not offer up their services to superbly wolf-like dogs. And even if they 'accidentally' do, you put them in a position to lose their license in a malpractice lawsuit.

Read up, talk to people, law enforcement, DEC, and others- though understand they probably will turn you off to the idea pester them about the legislation.

Understanding that the ONLY novelty about owning a wolf-dog is the up and coming conflicts and bills you didn't have prior to owning it.

Mysticism and creativity are wonderful and such creatures are indeed inspiring -- but getting them because they've got wolf in their blood is like buying the newest version of an iPod. It's a fad. Like all the tigers in the basements we keep finding on Long Island. It's cool and it's very unique amongst pet-ownership, but that doesn't mean it's right for an animal that is NOT domestic. They are tame, but far from domestic.

In my book, wolf/domestic crosses are not pets but a sheer extension of something you do as a side-job. My grandfather used to own a superb Collie/Wolf cross before they were banned in New York State -- they're superbly protective, they can get out of almost any enclosure you think is good enough, they resent being dominated, they on average will be smarter than their 'owner' and they need a lot of attention.

The hand raised, well done pups are super. But it's STILL a literal labor of love to have one or to even try and get legally situated. The finances alone are astronomical in the end, especially if you encounter legality issues with people, ordinances, and the new incoming laws that will spring up.

It's a good learning process to own one; from an education standpoint you become your own lawyer -- but I believe all people need to have a good foundation to stand on before buying one. If anything I'm trying to spur people to learn more about it and to get better footing than just jumping into the pit with ideas of 'cool' things.

If you don't have a good foundation as to why you want a Wolf-Dog DO NOT PURCHASE ONE. And don't try to tell yourself you have a good idea as to why you want to purchase or adopt one -- find a good reason if you're so intent. Test your rational, your endurance, and your own knowledge. If you can't stand to research these creatures, to question people, to investigate, to prep, to save and to immerse yourself for YEARS prior to buying one...

You have no right owning such an animal.

Yeah, it's that big of a deal.

As someone, myself, who wants to one day become a falconer part of the process is learning. Unless you become legally equipt you will never 'own' a wild animal without proper permits. I know all about the ideology of dedication, time-consuming labor of love.

I am also not shooting off topic to start a war about this. The main attempt is to make sure that if one day you get to own something so unique you don't do it for yourself. I would rather you worked with full blooded wolves than wolf-dogs.

Why?

Because then it helps people and turns into something more. At that point it is no longer about gratifying you but about something else, something bigger, something useful. Pets are our selfish stem to keep out loneliness. As they age they become useless money pits we often resent on some level and aren't as cute as they were when they were little or as entertaining when they were fast moving adults.

Understand that this is not an off-topic shoot for no reason. I like people with agendas because that will change our mind on issues, that will make us help the world we live in, and it will ultimately make us more concious of our own being and the fact that life and death is part of a cycle.

Man is not always the evil-doer and there are other windows to look out of, but it's getting people to look out them that's hard. Nature is a battle amongst it self, we are part of that force -- whether we choose to believe we are or not. Understanding wolves as things that can kill and will be killed is something we have to understand in order for some sort of chaotic harmony to make sense.

Steering ourselves to understanding all that, is a step few people will ever take for much more than self satisfaction.

okay! fine! i won't get one, jess!

Anubis wrote:okay! fine! i won't get one, jess!



[Text was in size 0 font](you don't have to be a F@&^$ b**** about it!!! *flips the finger*)

The text noted was at size zero when I went to comment EDIT: Before he editted -- Anubis on Fri Feb 10, 2006 1:55 am

Please refrain from the Size 0 Font commentary like it can't be found.

I'm not a moron. I realize you were upset but if you took the time to READ what I wrote you'll realize why I wrote it. I was not attempting to be a know it all. I don't know it all, I've never raised a wolf-dog, but it's a huge issue. One that effects neighborhoods and the society we live in.

Nothing I said was being bitchy, it was clearly stating something to help open eyes, an opinion about it and a notation at the bottom as to why I wrote it.

You don't have to be so generally inhospitable.

And editing a post does not go unlogged:

sorry i shouldn't have lost my temper, but you shouldn't been nicer about it and not be all preachy about it that was a bit of a put off.

and i wasn't like i'm going keep it in small back yard in a middle of a city, i was planning to move away far away from people, after all i hate people in general.

Anubis wrote:sorry i shouldn't have lost my temper, but you shouldn't been nicer about it and not be all preachy about it that was a bit of a put off.

and i wasn't like i'm going keep it in small back yard in a middle of a city, i was planning to move away far away from people, after all i hate people in general.[/.

It wasn't generally meant to be a turn on. And I was not being mean, I was EMPHASIZING points. There's a difference. I try to make the important reading easier to identify than my fillers.

I was telling you the tip of the iceberg in what needs to be known if you plan such a trial-and-error process of getting something so heavily guarded by people with little kids who absorb the news like it all is truth and fear people who have the resolve to do new, inventive things in this world.

I never EVER make the assumption that you were going to mal-treat, ill-house these animals. But passion usually gets to people and people want so badly their own desires sometimes become higher than the animals general necessities.

This puts animals of all kinds in jeopardy.

Curbing that before it ever has the chance to manifest itself is difficult, generally emphasizing and helping give people direction is what I was trying to do. You have to learn to read what is written like I'm not trying to sell you something or take away a dream -- I'm definately not, that would waste your usefullness.

If you re-read I locate some people you should pester and talk to in the sum of my rant.

Also, a little bit of hard-work scares off a lot of people who can't do the job in the end. That's another good reason I write so much. Raising a wolf-dog will be much harder than reading my rants.

My biggest problem with people is their general disregard for information, their tactless 'I can do it!' statements, aligned with superior and selfish egos of gratification I get angry.

I want to be a falconer, I'm not one yet -- years of dedicated thinking, finding a sponsor, apprenticing for two years, jumping through state and federal hoops, building a mews, getting the mews inspected, flying and training the bird for two years... generally insanity.

Dedication.

If anything it should have helped you to gear yourself to doing as my last paragraph stated: Use yourself for something useful.

Self-gratification with a unique pet is fantastic. For your popularity, not the animal. The animal is a trophy, like all exotics or rarities end up being and whether or not we want to admit it.

It is not self sacrifice that really gets you the gold either, because that too is silly (something else I illustrate in my rant). Something that makes use of you AND the animal is more than highly prized. There we have a win-win situation: gear towards that.

Figure out a way to work with REAL wolves. Get a permit to house and breed them, funnel your way into doing something not just generally amazing but generally useful.

If you're going to do so much work for something with 40%, 50%, 70% wolf in it, why not take it to a level where the headaches at least are better aligned than off the chart.

Hence the gist of the entire post and the last portion of it.

I realize I am long winded but there IS a point to my posts. And I am not easily bitchy on a message board.

Trust me, I am not here to thwart you with insults or badger you with distaste... But I want people to gear themselves differently -- we often forget we are useful, innovative, and CAPABLE creatures.

If we forget to use ourselves and gear our passions towards usefulness we merely become wanting ones instead.

I do not want you to throw way your want -- but there are better and definately cooler ways to satiate it.

Ink wrote:Understand that if neighbors or joggers or people complain that you are housing a WOLF it can and will be taken. Wolves are protected and if you are caught housing one and cannot prove it is a wolfdog (breeding proof of parentage, ex. DNA conformation of the domestic animal parentage) it CAN BE TAKEN.

No such test exists. You cannot use genetics to distinguish a dog from a wolfdog from a wolf. They are indistinguishable genetically. Which is probably why several groups have reclassified the dog as a subspecies of the wolf.

Lupin wrote:

Ink wrote:Understand that if neighbors or joggers or people complain that you are housing a WOLF it can and will be taken. Wolves are protected and if you are caught housing one and cannot prove it is a wolfdog (breeding proof of parentage, ex. DNA conformation of the domestic animal parentage) it CAN BE TAKEN.

No such test exists. You cannot use genetics to distinguish a dog from a wolfdog from a wolf. They are indistinguishable genetically. Which is probably why several groups have reclassified the dog as a subspecies of the wolf.

Please reread what I wrote. You've been mistaken.

An animals PARENTAGE as in lineage, not species of the lineage but the lineage (as in specific animal(s) themselves), CAN be determined scientificlly.

We do it all the time to PROVE breeding in high class animals. If Bitch1 is bred to Wolf1 and has Bitch2 you get a female wolf dog. You can take samples of Bitch1, Wolf1 and compare to Bitch2 and define it's parents. Thus defining it's parentage as a domestic animal. Case closed: WolfDog, not wolf.

Do not confuse what I am saying with outright defining the species, this does not determine SPECIES. DNA samples can legitimately prove the parents of the dog thus allowing for a true legal asset if someone claims your animal is a wolf. If you cannot prove that it isn't a wolf with domestic breeding, due to the threat if it is a wolf, it will be a wolf and therefore bylaw illegal to own.

This can also be proven with breeding paperwork but that fails without physical evidence of the dogs relation. Paperwork of registration has a nasty habit of being forged. Hence why any respectable breeding association now forces you to have DNA parentage for all registered animals. Registration is top dollar these days.

I understand Wolf dogs CANNOT be distinguished as wolves or dogs by their DNA alone thus if someone makes a claim that you are housing a wolf or wolflike creature and that is determined you may be breaking the law as Wolves are a protected speicies you cannot house without permit(s).

They CAN be aligned a geneology, however. Otherwise we would have a lot of champions around that could be illegitimate heirs to the family name.

And high class dog breeding does not like illegitimacy.

Parentage can be done by sending in buccal (cheek swab) samples of all parties to Parentage Verification places such as: VGL (Veterinary Genetics Laboratory)

We send in samples ever year to do testing on our horses. DNA Parentage is knowledge and a MUST for any breeder to have of any creature and can be done.

beautiful. where can i get one. lol