Why does religion hate sex?

[Kaebora]

I don't know why you quoted me for your "recreational sex" rant. I never said anything about casual sex.

I have come to understand what sex symbolizes for two people. It is the ultimate act of love. Nothing has more passion and intamacy than sex, and love is the only driving impulse that makes it truely feel right. Sex for love is something I can't see as a bad thing. As a Christian, I know it makes God much happier if that love is in the bond of marrage before doing so.

[Scott Gardener]

Evolutionary forces does seem to have shaped religion's view on sex, resulting in some rather strange, paradoxic notions. (Why God would be so opposed to it, I don't know, considering who invented the thing in the first place.)

Much of modern Catholic and Christian Fundamentalist opposition towards sexuality stems from guilt-based thinking; if it's enjoyable, it must be worldly and against God's ways (again, paradoxic, considering who created the world--but, that's what I hear preachers saying). But, one point they do make is that contemporary society trivializes sex. Too many people do seem to jump into it too quickly. I personally consider it too intimate to do with random strangers or casual acquaintances. I won't attach the same moral imperative that religion does, but doing so does offer a protective effect against the logical and practical problems that casual sex generates--long-reaching lifestyle-disruptive problems, such as unwanted pregnancies and broken long-term commitments, let alone STDs. Religion creates a strict framework of rules that act to inhibit this behavior.

I do find it astonishing how many people let hormones dictate their behavior at the expense of one's entire life. I see too many people engaging in dysfunctional sex--cheating on long term companions, not using protection when a pregnancy is not wanted, and so forth. Given that I believe in reincarnation and that I do not consider myself superior to other species of animals, I find it weird that I'm the one advocating responsible use of the sex drive, while other people who firmly believe in their core religious system that they have only one life followed by an eternity of judgement, and who believe that they're inherantly superior to other animals by God's design, blindly allow basic reproductive instincts to guide them at a context in which behavior over the course of one hour can undermine years of life preparation and decades of future afterwards.

Wicca as a religion does not frown upon sex, only the trivialization of it. It should be noted that Wiccan priestesses are reknown for great love-making. Thankfully, misuse of the religion for getting into peoples' pants doesn't seem to be a major problem, but I suspect that that's only because there aren't many people practicing it.

[Vuldari]

I don't know why you quoted me for your "recreational sex" rant. I never said anything about casual sex.

I was responding to your accusation that no one could hate sex...which I do.

I have come to understand what sex symbolizes for two people. It is the ultimate act of love. Nothing has more passion and intamacy than sex, and love is the only driving impulse that makes it truely feel right. Sex for love is something I can't see as a bad thing. As a Christian, I know it makes God much happier if that love is in the bond of marrage before doing so.

"Love" and "Sex" are not the same thing.

Sex is a physical action and impulse, like eating and going to the bathroom. (I know someone is going to take that as an insult, but there is no reason to. It's just the truth.)

Love is about caring about the people/person around you more than yourself.

There is also a difference between "Passion", and "Love". It's awesome when the two come together, but one can and does often exist without the other.

... Passionless Love ... and ... Loveless Passion ...

"Passion" is just being really exited about something or someone, in a way that makes you want to experience it again and again. Passion for your Sexual Partner is no different than Passion for a Sport, or a Hobby, or a Vocation...but LOVE is unique.

Far too many people don't know the difference and think, or at least treat it as if Passion and Sexual-Desire IS Love.


...it's not...



(Note: I am not accusing you personally of thinking this way. This is commentary regarding the Entire Human Race as a Whole, as I have observed it in my own lifetime)

[cumulusprotagonist]

(Note: I am not accusing you personally of thinking this way. This is commentary regarding the Entire Human Race as a Whole, as I have observed it in my own lifetime)

I'm watching you...
Say something like this applies to all those who disagree with me...

I do not know anything about this topic but I can recognize a generalization when I see one.

[MattSullivan]

I actually agree with Vuldari, to a point. Sex by itself is just sex. Love IS a mental thing. you have to KNOW you love someone, which is why so many men say it when a woman askes them if they love her. Sometimes theyll say yes...TO GET SEX!

No, that's not love. That's lying to get a piece of tail.

[Vuldari]

(Note: I am not accusing you personally of thinking this way. This is commentary regarding the Entire Human Race as a Whole, as I have observed it in my own lifetime)

I'm watching you...
Say something like this applies to all those who disagree with me...

I do not know anything about this topic but I can recognize a generalization when I see one.

Yes.

I think the whole of the Human Species is broken. That includes my own instincts, and my own beloved mother and father, and my sister, and my best friend, and everyone...

[cumulusprotagonist]

I am feeling really lonely right now...

I don't think like most people do...

I may act out at times but I don't think I am broken. I am always thinking about all of the choices I make. I always question myself and my actions.
As far as sex goes I know nothing about it...(Love VS Passion. I understand the "science".)

Even if people are "broken" they can still be "fixed"...


And there are people who are not broken and you just have not met them yet...

[Scott Gardener]

Oh, no. Not the old "humans are all screwed up" bit. Humans are a work in progress, but it's a self-perpetuated myth among humans that we're in any way seperated from nature. Humans are an adulescent species, going from a childhood of being instinctive and automatically synchronized with the whims and will of the world around us, towards an adulthood as an enlightened consciousness. We're at the obnoxious stage right now where we think we know it all but can't keep our room clean. Unfortunately, humans are as a species very melodramatic teenagers, who have already made a few suicidal gestures. And, we're turning out to be the kind of teenagers who take up smoking and get tattoos of Bart Simpson on our ankles. But, such foolishness is likely to lead to metaphorical teenage pregnancies--read that to mean that we're likely to invent powerful things before we're ready, such as artificial intelligence.

And, having a baby changes everything.

[Morkulv]

[Kaebora]

I have come to understand what sex symbolizes for two people. It is the ultimate act of love. Nothing has more passion and intamacy than sex, and love is the only driving impulse that makes it truely feel right. Sex for love is something I can't see as a bad thing. As a Christian, I know it makes God much happier if that love is in the bond of marrage before doing so.

"Love" and "Sex" are not the same thing.

Sex is a physical action and impulse, like eating and going to the bathroom. (I know someone is going to take that as an insult, but there is no reason to. It's just the truth.)

Then you totally missread the point I was making. I didn't say love and sex are the same thing, rather, I said that sex is the ultimate act of expressing one's love for another person. This idea further reinforces how I am against casual sex that makes a mockery of the sacred act that is supposed to be deeply emotionally involved.

[Vuldari]

Then you totally missread the point I was making. I didn't say love and sex are the same thing, rather, I said that sex is the ultimate act of expressing one's love for another person.

Funny... because it seems you have completely missed my point as well.

Physical Pleasure has nothing to do with "Love".

TRUE Love has nothing to do with that. One may choose to express their love for another by taking time away from their own pleasures to give them a massage, or cuddle them for warmth, (or have sex), which can in many cases be pleasing to both, but that in itself is not "love".

To claim that sex is the ultimate act of love is suggesting that physical pleasure is the primary purpose of love, and that if you don't provide that, then you don't love that person, or love them less if you DON'T have sex with.

This is just further support to me that most people really DON'T understand what "love" is.

Love is a thing that has nothing to do with gender. The gender one feels physical attraction towards is irrelevant. A straigt man can love another man, equally as much as a his female sex partner. Likewise, a lesbian woman can love a man whom she has no desire to ever get into bed with, as she does not find males attractive.

Do you love your parents? ...your extended family? ...your best friend?

I hope you say yes.

Do you have sex with them?
(unless you are talking about your friend, I hope your answer is No)

Personally, if I were to choose a single act as being the "ultimate act of love", it would be sacrificing your own life solely for the benefit of the person(s) you care for. That would be undeniable proof that you care for their continued happiness more than any reward you get in return.

I actually find it rather insulting to me, and all of the people in my life that I love to suggest love is best expressed by having sex, rather than devoting myself to bringing them happiness in more appropriate ways.

[Vuldari]

( ... continued ... )

Sex is probably the most potent, intimate and significant event of "Shared Pleasure" that two creatures can experience, but it is still only physical pleasure.

If this is a thing that two living beings who love each other recognise will bring them both equally appreciated pleasure, then that's great. That is one very unique and special way for the both of them to express their desires for the others experience of pleasure at the same time.

...but that is only because our bodies are designed to experience pleasure durring the act of proceation, to encourage the continuation of the species.

Yet, it is treated as if Procreation is the 'purpose' of love. That I think is one point most religions get wrong.

I "Love" my cousins and my old school pals, and my parents and siblings, even though the thought of having sexual intercourse with any of them disgusts me, (rigtfully so), and I love them all as much as any woman I may ever one day meet and feel the impulse or desire to make love to and/or bear children with.

Even though I'm sure I would "love" that person as truely as I love everyone else, desiring to have sex with one another is not a sign of that. All that means is that we are both horney animals.

Now... selling your beloved, prize posession, collectible classic car to help buy that person a bigger house near the city with room for a pet cat or 3, even though you hate the city and are alergic to cats, just because you know that will make them happy, and expecting no reward, (or Thank You Sex) in return...

...Now THATS "Love".




*[ Edit: Replaced the Word "Sex" with "Procreation" in once sentence, to clarify what I meant. ]*

[ravaged_warrior]

It's interesting that the concept of sex being an act of love has entered into the conversation, because there's a question I've had for quite awhile. Please don't think that I'm being condescending, I'm more curious about it.

What is the association between love and sex, besides the one that people decided on themselves?

[cumulusprotagonist]

I think some religions hate sex for most of the same reasons I do. I do not doubt or deny how good it feels. I just can't believe it could possibly be worth all the Pain and Suffering the Human race gives itself over it. ...again, IMHO.

IMHO=

___________________________________________________

A single action, even repeated, does not define an entire persons Good/Evil Polarity.

Which is why I should read more of Vuldari's posts before I open my big fat mouth...<<

Thus I take it that you are not associating "broken" with "Evil"...

______________________________________

I still would like to know though...
IMHO=

[Vuldari]

It's interesting that the concept of sex being an act of love has entered into the conversation, because there's a question I've had for quite awhile. Please don't think that I'm being condescending, I'm more curious about it.

What is the association between love and sex, besides the one that people decided on themselves?

Procreation is encouraged to continue through "Libido", and Libido encourages members of the opposite gender to wish to spend extraordinary amounts of time, intimately close to one another.

This situation puts those two people in a position where, if they do not learn to love one another, they will fail to be able to achieve the pleasure and satisfaction their libido let them together to achieve, and so, successful couples are couples who also love each other, in addition to being sexually attracted to each other.

Likewise, unsuccessful couples are those who do NOT love each other, and they inevitably break up.

As a result, it is easy to make the observation that one most often sees examples of people who TRULY love each other in successful Male/Female couples, and assume that pairing with someone of the opposite gender, with the purpose of participating in sexual intercourse and eventual procreation, is a prerequisite to experiencing "True Love".

It it my own observation that this is a False assumption.



Love is something that you will definitely want to be present if you desire to have a long term sexual relationship with another person, but the two concepts are paired only by common circumstance, not by essence.



Love can, and DOES exist without Sex. If the Human race somehow lost the ability to procreate bi-sexually, and we had to spawn all future generations in test tubes, or just reproduced asexually, even though gender would come to be a thing of the past, "LOVE" between two souls would continue to exist unchanged.



Having Sex and the physical act Making Babies does not, nor has ever had anything to do with Loving another person. ...however, when very loving pairs of people come to love a potential child between them before it is even conceived, and choose to direct their combined love and lives towards creating a very happy young person, at the expense of dedicating a large portion of their limited years of life towards that childs happiness...

That IS "Love".



...but giving up your big "Travel the World" Fund, which you have been building up for two decades, and giving it to your pen-pal instead who needs it to pay for a surgery that will save their life is ALSO no less an expression of "True Love".

Now, when one normally uses the phrase "True Love", most people automatically assume that one means the future second parent of your future child, and/or your SEXUAL lover, but that really does not have to be the case. True love CAN be found there...but it can be found elsewhere as well, in completely different kinds of relationships.


Love is caring for someone other than yourself.

[ravaged_warrior]

I have to say, I like your response, Vuldari. I was a bit confused at first, but then I remembered your anti-"sex for fun" (meaning anti-birth control, even in marriage, I assume?) post on the first page. I don't agree with your views on recreational sex, but I understand it. That, paired with your previous post, answers my question pretty well. I should have been able to come up with that myself, but I was thinking of it with birth control in mind, which for some reason I never thought "hey, they didn't have it when this connection was put together".

Thanks for the reply.

[Anubis]

Sexual intercourse in it's self is a very powerful action. It can alter lives, by bonding two people together with extremely powerful emotions. (if they hadn't gone out and trivialised it)

Also it is the most extremely important and the most AMAZING thing we can ever do! Because what can result is nothing short of profound.

the creation of... life!

Can you comprehend the magnitude of that!

Think about this, today scientists are trying to do it artificially in labs, but it is sooo far above us to construct even the simplest of life forms, bacteria. It will take us centuries, even if we try to create one by intimating the primordial soup, that spauned life in the first place.

And also creating artificial intelligence is no small feet either. It'll take us over a century to program an AI at the level of two-years, and if we ever be able to create an AI that can be on adult human level. It'll only be a shallow imitation of the real thing. We'll probably be never be able to create a true intelligence.

We are creating another sentient life that one day will create, think, and maybe change the world in any shape and form. A human life that deserves its chance at the world.

This is mainly why abortion pisses me off to no end. They say that women have a right to choose to abort, but they don't get the fact they are...

DENYING another human's life, DENYING a sentient life form the right to exsist!

IF YOU DON'T WANT A KID, PUT THE ONE IN YOUR BELLY UP FOR ADOPTION, AND KEEP YOUR LEGS CLOSED, YOU STUPID B***H!!

... Sorry about that, I got a little side traked *takes a deep breath and conitinues...

Sex has some epic consiqences, yet we don't seem get this. When people have sex with a random person, and treat it like it's a normal everyday body function, like going to the bathroom.

When in fact that we should give a good deal of thought about wisely doing it, and what we are doing "it" with.

[Set]

So the most importaint thing we can do in life is squirt out offspring on an already overcrowded planet into a crappy enviornment with incompetent twits for parents and let them grow up to be just as screwed up and planet-damaging as everyone else, maybe even more so?

And this is a good thing...why?

You really want a baby? Adopt one. There are PLENTY of children out there who need homes. You don't need to go producing your own spawn. There are far too many kids who don't get adopted as it is.

And I find it quite pigheaded of you to only blame the woman for it. It takes two to make a baby, idiot. If you're even going to be bringing it up you should also tell the males to keep it in their damn pants.

[Shadow Wulf]

This is just my beliefs and Im not trying to conflict with anyones else, I just feel that I should share my 2 cents and a story.

For the most part I agree with what Anubis says, he practically spoke my mind.

I believe in Abortion, but it can be abused. Why would you want to give birth to a kid you dont want to have? Baby's can feel unwanted when they are in the mother, this can affect them as they are growing up, dont make them suffer by not wanting them or even hating them. Or what if you fell like you made a mistake and do not want to continue on but its too late from saying no. And what if you were raped or even cant finance for the kid yourself, are you going to send him off to a foster home and he'll know for the rest of hes life that hes parents couldnt afford him or didnt want
him? Thats a bit painful to live with if you ask me.

We adopted my nephew who is about 4 years old and a little devil, and hes not like most kids. Anyway hes mother didnt loved him and had him sleeping in a crib that he barely fit in and surrounded by boxers that was near the washer.

Now we have to carry the burden of having this child and its conflicting me and my sisters social life and I hate it. On top of that, on Monday I couldnt go study with my friend for math exams because I had to babysit for my nephew. My parents didnt even talk to me and try to persuade me to accept this kid as my adopted brother and I never call him brother, everytime my parents calls him my little brother I always correct them and tell them hes my nephew. I cant say that I love him, I'll try to protect him from harm because thats morally the right thing to do.

My parents arent even taking care of the baby that well either, they are not taking care of him aswell as they did with me and my sister. When me and my sister were babies, there was a balance and my parents acted accordingly how they should, now my dad spoils him and whenever I do something he makes to appear in my nephews eyes that Im the bad guy. My mom likes to scream alot and can be a little harder on him than she should, this is mostly because of her being in menopause (and my dad is going through mid life crises).

So this is whats happening around my home

I cant have friends over simply because of this kid and my mom yelling over him.

I cant go anywhere at the time my mom leaves for work and when my sister or dad isnt around which is 4 out of 7 days of the week, sometimes 5. (on weekdays.)

I cant watch a movie in peace because hes yelling and screaming and playing with hes toys all over the place. Plus my dad doesnt believe in raising the volume.

He lets the dogs out every week.

Hes putting alot more stress for my family than what it needs to be.

My dad spoils him (and hes dirt cheap) and my mom doesnt know how to control her temper most of the time.

I dont feel safe having my stuff around thanks to this kid.

My mom makes a bigger mess than she use to. I hate it when she cooks because she never cleans up after herself.

Its harder for me and my sister to go off somewhere even when our parents are home because they want us to watch over him a little more while they are doing other stuff, this is not always their fault but it still gets me upset that I dont have as much freedom as I should, after all Im 18.



Anyway, every once in a while, I think to myself "Why couldnt they had given him to some other relatives". We have over 70 cousins, uncles, and aunts. but no we had to take it because we babysat him and hes older sisters when they came on vacation, and let me tell you my life becomes miserable when they come over. Id say I have became a little colder towards toddlers than I use to thanks to this little demon child.

[Lukas]

So the most importaint thing we can do in life is squirt out offspring on an already overcrowded planet into a crappy enviornment with incompetent twits for parents and let them grow up to be just as screwed up and planet-damaging as everyone else, maybe even more so?

And this is a good thing...why?

You really want a baby? Adopt one. There are PLENTY of children out there who need homes. You don't need to go producing your own spawn. There are far too many kids who don't get adopted as it is.

And I find it quite pigheaded of you to only blame the woman for it. It takes two to make a baby, idiot. If you're even going to be bringing it up you should also tell the males to keep it in their damn pants.

who's blaming women? where did Anubis say we should just pop out babes? he said that he believes that sex should be used for reproduction, that means if you don't want a baby, then don't have sex! and where does he say "its the womens fault", all i see is he doesn't support abortion
jesuses set your so caught up in your thinking that your opinion is law and you always twist other peoples words to mean something more then they are, also you always say it in a rude and inappropriate way

[Set]

IF YOU DON'T WANT A KID, PUT THE ONE IN YOUR BELLY UP FOR ADOPTION, AND KEEP YOUR LEGS CLOSED, YOU STUPID B***H!!

Did you by any chance not see that?

There's no mention of the guy in there. I'm just saying, if you're going to go off on that rant, then you should do more than just insult the woman. She didn't do that alone, you jackass.

And you don't like my attitude? Don't read my posts. No one is making you do it. Nor am I going to stop. I'm just as entitled to my opinion as you are to yours.

[Dreamer]

This is just my beliefs and Im not trying to conflict with anyones else, I just feel that I should share my 2 cents and a story.

For the most part I agree with what Anubis says, he practically spoke my mind.

I believe in Abortion, but it can be abused. Why would you want to give birth to a kid you dont want to have? Baby's can feel unwanted when they are in the mother, this can affect them as they are growing up, dont make them suffer by not wanting them or even hating them. Or what if you fell like you made a mistake and do not want to continue on but its too late from saying no. And what if you were raped or even cant finance for the kid yourself, are you going to send him off to a foster home and he'll know for the rest of hes life that hes parents couldnt afford him or didnt want
him? Thats a bit painful to live with if you ask me.

We adopted my nephew who is about 4 years old and a little devil, and hes not like most kids. Anyway hes mother didnt loved him and had him sleeping in a crib that he barely fit in and surrounded by boxers that was near the washer.

Now we have to carry the burden of having this child and its conflicting me and my sisters social life and I hate it. On top of that, on Monday I couldnt go study with my friend for math exams because I had to babysit for my nephew. My parents didnt even talk to me and try to persuade me to accept this kid as my adopted brother and I never call him brother, everytime my parents calls him my little brother I always correct them and tell them hes my nephew. I cant say that I love him, I'll try to protect him from harm because thats morally the right thing to do.

My parents arent even taking care of the baby that well either, they are not taking care of him aswell as they did with me and my sister. When me and my sister were babies, there was a balance and my parents acted accordingly how they should, now my dad spoils him and whenever I do something he makes to appear in my nephews eyes that Im the bad guy. My mom likes to scream alot and can be a little harder on him than she should, this is mostly because of her being in menopause (and my dad is going through mid life crises).

So this is whats happening around my home

I cant have friends over simply because of this kid and my mom yelling over him.

I cant go anywhere at the time my mom leaves for work and when my sister or dad isnt around which is 4 out of 7 days of the week, sometimes 5. (on weekdays.)

I cant watch a movie in peace because hes yelling and screaming and playing with hes toys all over the place. Plus my dad doesnt believe in raising the volume.

He lets the dogs out every week.

Hes putting alot more stress for my family than what it needs to be.

My dad spoils him (and hes dirt cheap) and my mom doesnt know how to control her temper most of the time.

I dont feel safe having my stuff around thanks to this kid.

My mom makes a bigger mess than she use to. I hate it when she cooks because she never cleans up after herself.

Its harder for me and my sister to go off somewhere even when our parents are home because they want us to watch over him a little more while they are doing other stuff, this is not always their fault but it still gets me upset that I dont have as much freedom as I should, after all Im 18.



Anyway, every once in a while, I think to myself "Why couldnt they had given him to some other relatives". We have over 70 cousins, uncles, and aunts. but no we had to take it because we babysat him and hes older sisters when they came on vacation, and let me tell you my life becomes miserable when they come over. Id say I have became a little colder towards toddlers than I use to thanks to this little demon child.

Well,gee. Your hatred of him is REALLY going to help him become more well adjusted. {Rolls eyes}

Anyway, I thought that Kaebora had a good point, but I think I agree with Vuldari's point more. Lust and love are two different things.

[Kaebora]

IF YOU DON'T WANT A KID, PUT THE ONE IN YOUR BELLY UP FOR ADOPTION, AND KEEP YOUR LEGS CLOSED, YOU STUPID B***H!!

Did you by any chance not see that?

There's no mention of the guy in there. I'm just saying, if you're going to go off on that rant, then you should do more than just insult the woman. She didn't do that alone, you jackass.

And you don't like my attitude? Don't read my posts. No one is making you do it. Nor am I going to stop. I'm just as entitled to my opinion as you are to yours.

Indeed, but calling someone a "jackass" isn't an opinion. It's an insult. We don't need that here. Same goes to you Anubis. I like the point your making, but don't call those women names for what they do. For all you know, there could be women on this very forum that have gotten abortions before. The point is, keep things respectable... please. This is a delicate subject as it is.

We're getting off track. The subject is how religion views sex. We're disputing facts of what our own religions say about the matter.

[Dreamer]

By the way, I wanted to mention how horriffically hyppocritical it is that Anubis uses his religion to hate on homosexuality, but in his fiction he keeps saying how horrible it is that werewolves are being called spawn of the devil by religious fantatics.

[Kaebora]

By the way, I wanted to mention how horriffically hyppocritical it is that Anubis uses his religion to hate on homosexuality, but in his fiction he keeps saying how horrible it is that werewolves are being called spawn of the devil by religious fantatics.

Should I also mention that personal attacks should also be kept private?

****Strike One****
This thread needs to get back on track now, before it's locked due to behavior.