What would werewolves think of therianthropes??

This is the place for discussion and voting on various aspects of werewolf life, social ideas, physical appearance, etc. Also a place to vote on how a werewolf should look.
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Rhuen
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Post by Rhuen »

Vuldari wrote:
Rhuen wrote:No one hates you for your Opinion.
Its how you present your opinion that is getting under these people's skin.

Its one thing to say, "this is how I interprit it"
its another to say, "this is the truth and that's that"

if you had said your piece and someone else said, "well to me its this" and you hadn't come back and basically said, "well no it isn't its this" then no one would have blinked twice in your direction.

Opinions are opinions not facts, and despite what ever research you may have done, it has no effect on how others have concluded themselves in this arena given their own experiences clearly.

So just dropping the idea of being right 100% would be a start.

Everyone is intitlted to their own opinion. Someone disagreeing with your view and having a different one is not a personal attack on you or your views. Its just a different view from your own and thats that.
What you want something to be is an "opinion".

But what someone in the past said something was is a "FACT". If a book from 1753 said one thing...the contents of that book and what it said are not open to interpretation. It says what is says, and it doesn't what it doesn't. That is how that legend/story as told by that person in that book went.

If the legend of the South Ireland Wolf-Beast of bastion (I made that up) describes the creature a certain way, and has been told that way for 300 years, it is a "FACT" that this is what the legend of the South Irish Bastion Wolf Beast was.

It is stories like that which were the inspiration for the genre we genre we are now involved with. Those are the "FACTS" which I think are being ignored, or carelessly re-written.

"I think Werewolves are much more interesting when they are like this" is an Opinion.

...but what kinds of stories were told most often in old Germany back when "Werwulf" first became a household word is not something that you can just make up for yourself. They told the stories that they told. Many of them have been written down, just as they were originally conceived. Are you really saying that it is NOT a fact that the texts taken from 'Deutchlands' archives of classical literature are an accurate, and confirmable representation of the stories they actually told?



Enough of this. Is anyone going to post something on topic, or is this just "Bash Vuldari" time now?

...maybe a moderator should separate this debate out of the topic into it's own thread, and then lock it if no one has anything more constructive to say that how much I annoyed them.
Fun fact: just about every werewolf legend contradicts all the other werewolf legends and should no more be taken as facts on the nature of the thing then the guy who drew a painting of a tiger with spots.
Peasants writing stories about werewolves each with their own twist is no more (fact) than anything someone makes up today.
Being older doesn't make it better or more (right).

I read these old myths and stories from around the world. They all are unique with little in common with each other except (man becomes wolf) that's about it.
In one we have a werewolf turning into a wolf with a magic belt and eating a whole horse and being so dumb he told his buddy what he did and was quikly executed.
another states that it can't become human again with out its human cloths.

Or become a wolf again with out the special pelt or salve.

We have them turning back to human if someone throws iron over top of their heads, and others that arn't harmed by anything.
Tailess giants that knock over carriages, small as dog ones, wolf that stands upright and has human eyes other wise no different than a wolf.
ect....and so forth....
Seeing as they don't really go together I say anybody today has just as much a right to do what ever they really want with it as they did.
(wolf/human) that's it thats the werewolf.
when I look in the mirror what looks back isn't always my reflection.
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Post by JoshuaMadoc »

You have enough fuel in your own mind to try to burn me at the stake as it is.

...besides...you would probably take some of it personally, and turn this into a flame war and a personal vendetta against me.



For the love of god, Vuldari, STOP. I may be much dumber than you are, but i'm not stupid enough not to smell the stench of you being in self-defense mode excessively, which you completely reek of the last 2 posts of this waste of space.

Please, just f*** stop already. Is it so f*** hard for you to notice that they're questioning your way of saying things, and not clamp your trap on it because it's so f*** harsh to you? My grandmother can speak worse rubbish, and my mother had to put up with her f*** up abuse for the past 2 decades.
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Post by Vuldari »

Rhuen wrote:Fun fact: just about every werewolf legend contradicts all the other werewolf legends and should no more be taken as facts on the nature of the thing then the guy who drew a painting of a tiger with spots.
Peasants writing stories about werewolves each with their own twist is no more (fact) than anything someone makes up today.
Being older doesn't make it better or more (right).
That's not what I meant.

All werewolf stories are just that...stories. Coming up with your own twists on the concept is great. You are right. Everyone who tells a story does that to some extent. What is fact is that someone told it that way. It is also a fact that someone painted a Tiger with spots. (apparently)

The difference is, there is such a thing as a Tiger, but there is not such a thing as a Werewolf. Therefore, the history of the werewolf is all in how it was told before you got to it, and those are the facts. What you do with it from there is entirely up to you, but it is wise to know how it was told to be previously by those who actually invented the idea first. Knowing the facts about what the creature and the stories meant to those who first made stories about them, and why those same stories continued to be retold, (with artistic embellishments here and there), provides essential insight into why anyone would want to hear stories about such a thing, and what needs to be in it for it to be relevant and significant to them.

People didn't keep telling varying stories about werewolves for hundreds of years because everyone hearing them wished to become wolves themselves. That was never what it was about. ...and it wasn't always Wolves either, or even distinguishable animals. The modern Werewolf Legend is not a cumulation of every story ever written with wolves in it, but a cumulation of all of the various transforming monster stories from around the world blended into one, using the most commonly utilized form as the namesake.

...stories such as...
Rhuen wrote:In one we have a werewolf turning into a wolf with a magic belt and eating a whole horse and being so dumb he told his buddy what he did and was quikly executed.
another states that it can't become human again with out its human cloths.

Or become a wolf again with out the special pelt or salve.

We have them turning back to human if someone throws iron over top of their heads, and others that arn't harmed by anything.
Tailess giants that knock over carriages, small as dog ones, wolf that stands upright and has human eyes other wise no different than a wolf.
ect....and so forth....
Thank you Rhuen for those wonderful examples.
Rhuen wrote:Seeing as they don't really go together I say anybody today has just as much a right to do what ever they really want with it as they did.
Go for it.

...just don't forget about, shun or try to bury the stuff that came before you. That is the heritage of the stories you are making up. ...and it's good stuff, even the weird ones.


As a community that claims to be seeking to support, create and discuss the best of what "Werewolves" are all about, it would be suicidal to focus solely on just the fractional portion of the total audience that views the concept of being transformed into a fanged beast as a GOOD thing.

...which it is apparent to me that many of us have been doing. However, I am quite confident that, should anyone bother to look at the history of the genre as it has existed, blended and evolved over the last multiple centuries that the strongest draw and lasting quality that the creature has is NOT the narrow-minded "Everyone Wants to be a Werewolf, because thats the best" perspective that the Furry/Therian-centric majority of this group seems to have.

That is my opinion. The statement that most people recognize, (as they have for centuries), Werewolves as being things that are not just capable of being dangerous, but things that are intended to be FEARED, is not.


I am an animal lover, with an obsession about having a fluffy tail, and increasing infatuation with foxes, and a general state of mind that never goes a day without thinking about transforming into some animal or another, with the general opinion that doing so would be delightful...

... but in spite of all that, though a creature that is a human that can become a wolf could potentially satisfy many of my favorite fantasies, the "Werewolf" (and all of the different legends that came to be intertwined with it) is more than what you, I, or anyone else feels compelled to make it into, but also what it was for someone else, what it represented for the generations before our own, and the impact and influence it has had on the culture of billions since people first started thinking about such a thing.

And we all could learn alot by bothering to look at the "Big Picture" a little more often. ...about ourselves...about humanity...about the art of storytelling...and who knows what else.

---------------------------------------------


This is all getting way off topic again. I am just responding to the concepts being thrown at me. ...is it my fault they are not related to the topic at hand? How did this start anyway?
Please Forgive the Occasional Outburst of my Inner Sage ... for he is Oblivious to Sarcasm, and not Easily Silenced.

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Post by Vuldari »

kitetsu wrote:
You have enough fuel in your own mind to try to burn me at the stake as it is.

...besides...you would probably take some of it personally, and turn this into a flame war and a personal vendetta against me.



For the love of god, Vuldari, STOP. I may be much dumber than you are, but i'm not stupid enough not to smell the stench of you being in self-defense mode excessively, which you completely reek of the last 2 posts of this waste of space.

Please, just {censored} stop already. Is it so {censored} hard for you to notice that they're questioning your way of saying things, and not clamp your trap on it because it's so {censored} harsh to you? My grandmother can speak worse rubbish, and my mother had to put up with her {censored} up abuse for the past 2 decades.
Is that supposed to inspire me to not feel defensive?

People, (including you), just keep getting angrier and angrier at me.

What do I NOT have to be defensive about? OF COURSE I am in "Defense Mode". I don't like people being angry with me...especially when I don't think they have any reason to.


People think I've been saying things that are repressing their creativity, when I haven't.


I've been trying to introduce a new concept, and new perspective, and a new method of interpreting a thing that I think many of you have never tried before, which I think may help you understand my perspective and opinion a little bit better.

I'm suggesting taking the *blinders (*a metaphorical reference to something used to keep cattle looking straight ahead, by hiding everything else from their sight) off, supplementing, (not 'REPLACING') your current trains of thought with all of those that came before yours, and organizing the clutter into a comprehensible system to help get a better understanding of things as a whole.


Doing so, I think, will help us all see why just saying "Werewolf" or "Therian", and expecting anyone else to be able to figure out exactly what you mean with any deal of ease, or accuracy is not as simple as one might think.

They are both overly-broad categories in desperate need of further distinction. IMHO
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Post by cumulusprotagonist »

Cluster*u$! at The Pack Forum...
(Daily Show with John Stewart on Comedy Central)

But seriously please stop the negativity it is depressing...
Maybe I am wrong...

DO NOT CLICK ON THIS LINK!!!!!!


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Post by JoshuaMadoc »

Vuldari wrote:<snip>

Of course i'm getting more irritated. Because now you know why i've been trying hard to restrain myself, knowing fully that, oh, i've lagged so much in my zoology and biology studies it's nonexistant to tell you, in the form of a squijillion-word-long essay on why i don't exactly approve of your "new ideas", whenever i read each and every one of your posts.


And you want to know another thing?


You said your ideas are "new". Ok, so that's you saying it. But i say it falls to the category of traditionalism. Which means that it's the stark f*** contrast. But that's not completely why i'm getting more "angry". Why i'm getting "more angry" is the frequency of you bringing it up. Sure, it's coated with insight, but i'm more "angry" because i f*** KNOW IT ALREADY.

So! Now that i've said what i wanted to say for so f*** long, i'll be here, in my praying rug, praying that i won't have to do this again. Because i'm at my wit's end with this garbage.


No, wait, you know what? I'll retract this whole statement. Everytime i get emotional, i speak moonspeak, and i degenerate into incoherence with words. I'm sure that if you hit that quote button, you'll just ask me even more as to what the f*** i'm talking about.


And cumulus, with all due respect, lack of negativity would turn your progress into wisdom to blubber.
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Post by Terastas »

Rhuen wrote:No one hates you for your Opinion.
Its how you present your opinion that is getting under these people's skin.

Its one thing to say, "this is how I interprit it"
its another to say, "this is the truth and that's that"

if you had said your piece and someone else said, "well to me its this" and you hadn't come back and basically said, "well no it isn't its this" then no one would have blinked twice in your direction.

Opinions are opinions not facts, and despite what ever research you may have done, it has no effect on how others have concluded themselves in this arena given their own experiences clearly.

So just dropping the idea of being right 100% would be a start.

Everyone is intitlted to their own opinion. Someone disagreeing with your view and having a different one is not a personal attack on you or your views. Its just a different view from your own and thats that.
Amen.

Vuldari, shut up about your damn facts! The only time there was ever any "facts" about werewolves was back when it was also a fact that the sun was revolving around a flat Earth. Furthermore, those "facts" were that werewolves were the result of witchcraft or other "magical" means. If I recall, one of the very first things we agreed on two years ago was that lycanthropy as magic was a very unpopular idea. If you're so bent out of shape that this forum is deviating from the "facts," why didn't you bring it up two years ago when we did in the first place?

You can make your posts as long as you want, but it doesn't change the fact (no pun intended) that you're trying to push your own opinion as 100% fact and fault anyone that disagrees with you. You've taken what should have been an otherwise typical discussion and turned it entirely into a rant about you.

If you can't accept that you do not automatically have the truth, take all of your "truths" and stick them back up where you pulled them from.
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Post by WerewolfKeeper3 »

I repeat "i thought this was a debating website" not a bashing web site. Every other post is about problems someone has with one other person.
FOR GODS SAKE PEOPLE, JUST DROP IT ALREADY! i swear...
one of the reasons why i wanted on this site was because i THOUGHT, i could discusss my theories with others and make comments on their's, but so far every time i do, Vuldari, i get the feeling that you'd have prefered me to just shut up and listen to you, AND NOT THINK FOR MYSELf. I'm sick of all this bickering and (methaphorically) yelling from everyone, and we've all gone WAY OFF TOPIC. No offense, but when exactly did this become the "discussing our likes and dislikes of other posters" thread?
All this crap i've seen is starting to make me wonder why i ever got on this stupid site in the first place, because right now, i just don't see the point of me saying anything, if i'm not heard. Vuldari, i mean no offense to you, but one of my other ideas "could a werewolf be one mentally instead of physically" was my attempt at getting you and some else to not argue. I can't recall his name, but he said that in his "humble opinion" therains were werewolves too. You dissagreed with him (which i have no problem with) to an extent that i found close to being hostile, but your response to my idea, was hostile.
I was just suggesting anouther point of view, but you were acting like yours was the only point of view. I don't mean to sound... (hell with it) okay i do. I am mad. There i said it. I've found my ideas are nothing in your eyes eyes, and i don't like that. Some of your ideas i do agree with to a certain point, but instead of listening to my ideas, you explain why my ideas are worthless.
I am really debating weither i should continue to be on this site, because if my ideas are going to dismissed wihtout even thinking about them, i can see my story would hold no ground with you. My story is one i am planning on publishing, and i thought i could get new ideas, and share some of mine with this audience. I'm gettin off my rant, but thats what i do.
I do appreciate others who have heard me, but it seems Vuldari, you have yet to do so. At this point, to tell you the truth, you are the only one, who has ever "dismissed" me on this site. That is, you posted something that gave me the impression you didn't think i was smart enought to speak to you. As others have said, thsi is a public forum, not your own personal one.
So please, don't buy my book, and if you don't like one of my ideas, tell me why; don't shoot it down because you don't.
(i would interject here, but i think he's covered it.)
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Post by Vuldari »

kitetsu wrote:Of course i'm getting more irritated. Because now you know why i've been trying hard to restrain myself, knowing fully that, oh, i've lagged so much in my zoology and biology studies it's nonexistant to tell you, in the form of a squijillion-word-long essay on why i don't exactly approve of your "new ideas", whenever i read each and every one of your posts.
I nearly flunked biology in High school.

I write incredibly long messages because I think extremely specific thoughts...not neccesarily because I am trying to suggest that I am more educated than you.

I'm not.

I actually had a pretty low GPA in school, and just barely graduated on time, even with two years of summer school.

...plus, I'm missing nearly half of my much used 1983-edition dictionary from it falling apart from over-use, so I have had to resort to cross-referencing at least two online sources (I don't trust them as much for some reason), for much of the information I want for the last few years. I really need to invest in a new one myself.

My Older Sister and Younger Brother are the 3.8-4.0 GPA Wiz Kids. I go to them for any science and biology facts that I can't get straight answers about online.

I'm an ambitious thinker...not a genius. (Though I wish I was)
kitetsu wrote:You said your ideas are "new". Ok, so that's you saying it. But i say it falls to the category of traditionalism. Which means that it's the stark {censored} contrast. But that's not completely why i'm getting more "angry". Why i'm getting "more angry" is the frequency of you bringing it up. Sure, it's coated with insight, but i'm more "angry" because i {censored} KNOW IT ALREADY.
What I was referencing as "NEW" in my previous message was not the old information, but a different way of looking at it...a different perspective that is possibly NEW to YOU (if you have never looked at it that way before)... not to the entire world.

kitetsu wrote:So! Now that i've said what i wanted to say for so {censored} long, i'll be here, in my praying rug, praying that i won't have to do this again. Because i'm at my wit's end with this garbage.


No, wait, you know what? I'll retract this whole statement. Everytime i get emotional, i speak moonspeak, and i degenerate into incoherence with words. I'm sure that if you hit that quote button, you'll just ask me even more as to what the {censored} i'm talking about.


And cumulus, with all due respect, lack of negativity would turn your progress into wisdom to blubber.
Every time I get into a discussion like this, it starts with me making a suggestion or claiming something that is intentionally disruptive to the common perspective, (meant to be "Thought Provoking", not rage inducing), but by some twist of fate, I seem to be unable to phrase my ideas in a way that is comprehensible to anyone else.

I say something, meaning one thing, but then everyone thinks I meant something else.

From there, the discussion gets dragged on and on as I try to elaborate to clarify which points I am being misinterpreted on. Then, people respond to my elaboration even more confused than before and begin to form an impression in their minds that gradually drifts further and further from what I am actually trying to say.

All I want is for you to realize that that 'bad' thing that you thought I was suggesting, I was never suggesting at all.


It's tempting to just walk away and wait for things to cool down, but if I let the person who is misinterpreting me get the last word, everyone involved in the conversation will be left thinking that what that person claimed I was saying was the truth of the matter. ...when it isn't.


All I want if for everyone to know what I MEANT...not what you keep THINKING I meant.



...I am NOT saying I am smarter than you, and that you should all follow whatever I say.

...I am NOT saying that only people from the past were allowed to invent variants of the "Werewolf" theme, and that being creative with it is somehow forbidden to us now.

...I am NOT saying that it is 'Against Vuldari Law' to refer to anything that does not meet my personal approval and guidelines as a "Werewolf".


I'm not sure what other things some of you managed to conclude I was saying in this conversation, but chances are, I was NOT saying that either.


If you are confused about what I WAS saying at any particular point in the conversation, feel free to Ask me (IN A DIFFERENT THREAD), or PM me about it if you must, though I would still prefer it be a public conversation, because if YOU were confused about that thing, likely alot of other people were as well, and I'd like to clarify to everyone at once, if that is even possible.



However, if you are going to continue to attack me, or post angry messages directed towards me, I WILL continue to defend myself indefinitely. You will never see me slink away with my tail tucked between my legs. It's best to know that about me now.


---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Back "ON TOPIC" Please...
Please Forgive the Occasional Outburst of my Inner Sage ... for he is Oblivious to Sarcasm, and not Easily Silenced.

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Post by WerewolfKeeper3 »

I apologize if i offended you.
...
I do. I just don't like it when someone responds in a way that makes me doubt my own thoughts.
I don't think you were meaning an insult when you responded earlier on the thread about my idea. However, i didn't like the tone in which it was written. Given, i don't the tone you werew riting it in, so i could be wrong. Franly i could be wrong about a lot of things, and i did not really want to blow up in your face in front of everyone, but sometimes you do act as if your superior to others. And, being someone new to the site, everytime one of my ideas was reaponded to in a negative fashion, i found it personally insulting. I'm sorry my temper go the best of me, and i probably could have rephrased alot of what i wrote, and plan to one day. But right now, what i meant to say, was somewhere in that garbage i posted, which was: i wish you treat me, if not an equal, at least as someone who's opinion matters. Some of your posts indicate, that you don't think my ideas, my suggestions, are valid. I just wanted to get that off my chest, Vuldari, so i don't blow up later when i'm responding to another of your posts, or your responding to one of mine. It hurts when you feel no one is listening to you, or if you think people just don't think you matter. Sorry, but that's how feel.

And frankly, we've gotten so far off topic, i don't even remeber what the last post that dealt with this topic was. Does anyone? :?
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Post by Vuldari »

Terastas wrote:Vuldari, shut up about your damn facts! The only time there was ever any "facts" about werewolves was back when it was also a fact that the sun was revolving around a flat Earth.

Yes...Werewolves, like the 'Flat Earth' Theory, are both myths. It is a "Fact" that people believed that the world was flat back then.

...but that it completely beside the point my whole "Facts" argument was trying to make, and still, everyone is misunderstanding me and thinking I was saying something that I wasn't.

Werewolves are NOT fact. They are fiction. Therefore, the FACT of the FICTION IS the FICTION. The FICTION is the FACTS, because there are not Factual Facts, being as it is all Fiction. As an entity of pure fiction, it's FACTUAL history is found entirely in it's historical FICTION. The FICTION from days past is as much FACT as a FICTIONAL thing can have. (Now I bet you are really confused)

That is the history of the Werewolf. But that is not the main point I was trying to make either...


The only reason why I bothered to stress that point in the first place was just supposed to be a side-note stressor and explanation as to why it is my "OPINION" that classical Werewolf mythology deserves to get more recognition from "The Pack" (in reference to another thread)

... (but for this thread...) that only a fraction of that mythology was originally known as creatures called "Werwulf", at the time comprising of a more specific type of story, which makes it sensible to me, if we were to redefine the dividing lines of the expanded, associated genre, (which I think we should) to use that as the base, default interpretation of the historical FACT of what a Werewolf was known to be, and all variations thereafter just that... variations.


This would be purely for historical accuracy and out of respect for those clever souls who started telling those stories first, and not in any way a suggestion that said interpretation is the BEST or only TRUE interpretation of the creature...merely the first, without which much of the rest would not exist. (At least not by the Name "Werwulf", but by what all the other names Non-German cultures, to which the word "wer/were" means nothing to, choose to call their shapeshifting beasties and people.)



I think of it like giving credit to the original artist when basing my own work off of theirs. It's just the only thing that makes sense to me. Nothing else feels right.


Terastas wrote:Furthermore, those "facts" were that werewolves were the result of witchcraft or other "magical" means. If I recall, one of the very first things we agreed on two years ago was that lycanthropy as magic was a very unpopular idea. If you're so bent out of shape that this forum is deviating from the "facts," why didn't you bring it up two years ago when we did in the first place?
...you think I didn't?

It is a totally different conversation when you are merely discussing which ideas are more or less "Popular", vs. discussion about how something would or would not "BE".

...but it was mindsets that began with such conversations that lead to me feeling the need to get up on my soap-box now. When people were saying back then that they liked one thing less than another...I don't think I realized just how much the popular opinion was going to overshadow the entire community later on, to the point that people who don't conform to that popular ideal are grudgingly accepted, but generally treated like fools by everyone else.

If I had anticipated that, I probably would have made a bigger deal about it. (Though I could almost swear that I DID.)
Terastas wrote:You can make your posts as long as you want, but it doesn't change the fact (no pun intended) that you're trying to push your own opinion as 100% fact and fault anyone that disagrees with you.
The only things I claim as facts are documented historical information. Where you got the impression that I'm forcing my opinions on you I don't know.
Terastas wrote: You've taken what should have been an otherwise typical discussion and turned it entirely into a rant about you.
No...the people ranting about me did that. ...I've just been holding up my wooden shield and fending them off with my pointy stick, desperately trying to explain to them that I did NOT steal their coconut, and that it is laying beneath the tree right where they left it, but for some reason they don't believe me.
Terastas wrote:If you can't accept that you do not automatically have the truth, take all of your "truths" and stick them back up where you pulled them from.
Just WHAT IS IT that you think I am presenting as "Truth" that you find so threatening as to inspire such anger against me?

All I'm saying is that about X-hundred+ some years ago, some Germans told some stories about scary men who changed into wolves and did scary things, and called them "Werwulf", and that no creature prior to that was ever known by that name. ...and that the previous statement is "TRUE".

What is it that you think I have been saying?
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Post by cumulusprotagonist »

Werewolves are people. Different people would respond to this forum in different ways. So the answer to the question depends on the person. There can be no definite answer.

A person in my opinion is anyone with a certain level of intelligence.

Vuldari feel free to bash me and present the facts concerning the definition and origin of the word "person" or "people". I will not get mad or upset. Try to focus away from those who are steamiing and let them cool off.

My perception is that you have not been trying to offend anybody, you just have strong emotional feelings towards it. Thus you say something you should not and then everything else you have said gets interpreted in the same way. You do come off as a little strong however.

What everbody should do is look up the original definition before they respond to your posts. Post what they found to be the original definition and go from there. In the hopes of at least agreeing on what the original definition is.
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Post by WerewolfKeeper3 »

Finally a voice of reason in the sea of endless arguing.
What cumulusprotagonist said.
I like this site, i would also like it if people (himself included) would stop arguing about something so stupid.
We're here to discuss what our theories are (and he uses that term loosely,) and to bounce ideas off each other.
SO far, i haven't seen anyone doing that, at least not in this thread, and at least not that far into it.
Can we please get back to the topic we were attempting to disscuss and not get mad at each other again?
Please?
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Post by Ancient »

After reading all these post I think I can finally post something on topic. As I feel I have no reason to jump into anyone's harsh feelings towards others as I have not been offended.

I will start by posting my personal definition of each word. To me a werewolf as stated by so many means man/wolf. Which means that a man can change into a wolf. Okay, since I have said that definition I will say what I think a therian is. Note this is just my personal definition of the word and not an attack on anyone. To me a therian is someone who shares traits with a particular animal in their mind and spirituality. It could be any animal in the world from a wolf to a fly. I'm taking this to mean that we are speaking of wolf theirans. With that being said I will now answer the question based off my personal definitions because I have no others to go on.

I think that a werewolf would probably view a therian as 'pretending' to be a werewolf. Sort of a play werewolf. With that being their mindset it would make them unwilling to turn a therian. Because as someone stated earlier the therian may be overeager to get what they would consider a 'gift'.

Please do note that my answer is not intended to insult therians but is just a short but honest answer on how I view the question based only on my own personal definitions of the words werewolf and theiran.
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Post by cumulusprotagonist »

WerewolfKeeper3 wrote:Finally a voice of reason in the sea of endless arguing.
What cumulusprotagonist said.
I like this site, i would also like it if people (himself included) would stop arguing about something so stupid.
We're here to discuss what our theories are (and he uses that term loosely,) and to bounce ideas off each other.
SO far, i haven't seen anyone doing that, at least not in this thread, and at least not that far into it.
Can we please get back to the topic we were attempting to disscuss and not get mad at each other again?
Please?
I am trying to end the arguement a different way...
Asking nicely does not work
Asking strongly or angrily does not work.
So what else is there?

Might I suggest agreeing to disagree? I doubt this will work...

So just agree that Vuladari's definition EXISTS and is documented and then let it go.
Terastas
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Just agree that Vuldari's definition EXISTS and THEN let it go.
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Post by Vuldari »

WerewolfKeeper3 wrote:I apologize if i offended you.
The only way you could do that is by suggesting that I meant any harm or displeasure to you intentionally.
WerewolfKeeper3 wrote:I just don't like it when someone responds in a way that makes me doubt my own thoughts.
Now this is one bit of honesty that I fully admit that I don't think I ever took into account during this entire conversation.

The fact of the matter is...when I start disruptive topics, it IS my intention to make you doubt your own thoughts.

...but this is not because I am trying to insult anyone, but rather, the goal behind it is to try to inspire others to think of other thoughts that never crossed their minds before, possibly because they have been stuck on a single one for too long.

I spend my entire life trying to look at everything from as many perspectives as possible. In my own mind, it feels inconceivable to me that others may not want to do the same.

I never considered that it might be threatening to some people to ask someone else to try to see things the way I see them. ...if only for a moment.


What I present as an invitation and a lesson on how to "View the World through Vuldari colored glasses", others may receive as an attempt to force them to "ACCEPT" that view as their own.

That has never been my intention. I want you to UNDERSTAND me... not Become Me.

WerewolfKeeper3 wrote:I don't think you were meaning an insult when you responded earlier on the thread about my idea. However, i didn't like the tone in which it was written. Given, i don't the tone you werew riting it in, so i could be wrong. Franly i could be wrong about a lot of things, and i did not really want to blow up in your face in front of everyone, but sometimes you do act as if your superior to others. And, being someone new to the site, everytime one of my ideas was reaponded to in a negative fashion, i found it personally insulting.
I don't quite remember which idea you are talking about.

I'm sorry that whatever I said bothered you so much. I never intentionally try to hurt anyone. Even when I am unapologetically harsh, (which I sometimes am), it is always in the best of intentions in the long run...even if sometimes a little tactless.
WerewolfKeeper3 wrote:But right now, what i meant to say, was somewhere in that garbage i posted, which was: i wish you treat me, if not an equal, at least as someone who's opinion matters. Some of your posts indicate, that you don't think my ideas, my suggestions, are valid. I just wanted to get that off my chest, Vuldari, so i don't blow up later when i'm responding to another of your posts, or your responding to one of mine. It hurts when you feel no one is listening to you, or if you think people just don't think you matter. Sorry, but that's how feel.
Geez... Image ... now you are making me feel like the Wicked Witch of the West, and I don't even know what I said to make you feel that way.
WerewolfKeeper3 wrote:And frankly, we've gotten so far off topic, i don't even remeber what the last post that dealt with this topic was. Does anyone? :?

Scenario:

*Werewolves are real. Some Werewolves meet up with some Therians and the Therians tell the Werewolves all about themselves, and what the popular opinion is of Therians about Wolves, Werewolves and the prospect of becoming host to Lycanthropy, (aka, becoming a Werewolf)*

Question:

"What is the Werewolves opinion of the Therians?"
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Post by WerewolfKeeper3 »

WerewolfKeeper3 wrote:
Vuldari
This is just a suggestion:
Could a person, while not physically a werewolf, be one mentally?


That is called "Clinical Lycanthropy", and is a real, documented psychological condition.

Even if the persons 'Other Side' was a Wolf, though it may be reasonable to sometimes refer to them as a Werewolf for the sake of conversation, I personally would not consider that a factual labeling.
Now that i look at it, maybe i was viewing it a bit harshly. (Then again, it could be the fact that he showed he was human. I believe he's male. anyway. The Witcch comment confused me. Oh, well Besides, i might have taken that a little to harshly myself. Than again, and this is the part where i admit i was wrong, i did think he was an swear word meaning mule. I'm truly sorry about that. Then again, you didn't admit you could have possibly, kinds been mistaken, or showed that you actually care what people think before, so, i kinda judged you, before i should have.)

The dismissing thing, and wanting to be an equal, came from the ending of a different thread, Specifically Figarou's RefSheet. (given, shouldn't have added that line about his chracter, but about you saying something to the effect of not wanting to discuss measurments about his chracter. I read it a bit to quickly, and as usual, i misitepreted it as you insulting us again. And again, i apologize.)
Damn, did he do anything that does sound insulting, after his last post?
(No, not really. I guess he was right: i was misinterepting him. However...)
What?
(i don;t suppose he could maybe tune down the intellectual speak here. You're planing on being an english major, not science. Probably should have explined that, huh?)
He's smart, and i do want to understand him, and i don't mind thinking differently. Besides, he did just treat me like an equal.
Thank you.
(and sorry)
Gotta go. Thundering outside.
(His mom wants him to get off the computer.) :lol:
She's your mother too, dipstick.

And anyway, we really don't know do we?
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Post by garouda »

Ancient wrote:I think that a werewolf would probably view a therian as 'pretending' to be a werewolf. Sort of a play werewolf. With that being their mindset it would make them unwilling to turn a therian. Because as someone stated earlier the therian may be overeager to get what they would consider a 'gift'.

Please do note that my answer is not intended to insult therians but is just a short but honest answer on how I view the question based only on my own personal definitions of the words werewolf and theiran.
As we are attempting to extrapolate the thoughts and feelings that werewolves would have towards Therians, I guess in general terms your thoughts are as good as any.

Still the circumstances under which the two groups encounter one another would, I think, factor in quite significantly.

First off, not all 'Therians' are 'out'. Many likely just experience their lives from a non-standard perspective and prefer to keep it to themselves. Friends and family may note a predeliction towards certain topics in life, but presume nothing beyond that. I have noted in my readings that some folks who consider themselves Therians, wonder if they are nutjobs or off kilter. Probably they are not. Likely they are just living one of the more unusual portions of the human experience.

Among those who do consider themselves Therians, there is a wide range of thoughts and also of responses to walking this path. Some really become quite involved in seeking and searching out the whys, wherefores and whats of their lives. And while some seem rather certain of both the questions and the answers, others are most decidedly not. For some, the impact and meaning of their Therian feelings are of striking importance and weigh heavily in their lives, yet for others the influence is considerably more moderated. For some the Therian experience IS THE ANSWER, while for others it is more of a MYSTERY and raises many questions. How Therians interpret and experience their own lives, is quite likely as various as there are Therians on the planet. Even so, this has not prevented people affected by these thoughts and feelings from seeking one another out and exchanging ideas.

So starting with just that very incomplete premise, one could see that the Therians which Werewolves might encounter could be very different from one another. And it should go without saying that Werewolves themselves are also, each and every one of them, individuals. So now we find ourselves with two variables. One on each side of the equation. Those are sometimes the hardest calculations to solve.

So now, we have to take two variable assumptions and attempt to see how they might interact.

Conclusions A Werewolf Might Reach = Perceptions Of A Therian By Said Werewolf.

On the left side of the equation we have the actuality that the werewolf lives every moment of its life.

What might be among these ?
1. Pack Politics
2. Pack and Packmember Isolation
3. The desire / undesire for supporters and defenders
4. Is the Pack already too large or does it need associates
5. Loneliness
6. Material needs which the pack is having difficulty satisfying
7. Fear of exposure
8. Pack attrition
9. Can the pack support another member ?
10. Is the pack prepared to be responsible for an additional werewolf ?
11. Does the pack have the ability to properly induct, guide and train a new member ?
12. Is the pack able to conduct a thorough background check on prospective members ? Is it willing to do so ?
13. How is the pack prepared to deal with a problem member ?
14. ..... add your factors here ........

On the other side of the equation might be

1. Is this person a nutjob ?
2. Is this person sympathetic ?
3. Do they understand what it really means to be a werewolf ?
4. Is this person intelligent enough to be a 'safe' member of the pack ?
5. Do they clearly understand the ramifications that once bitten it is FOREVER ?
6. Does this person work well with others ?
7. Is this person suicidal ?
8. What kind of willpower does this individual have ?
9. Does this person routinely practice self restraint ?
10. Does this person demonstrate common sense ?
11. Do you like this person ?
12. What does your intuition or gut sense tell or warn you about this person.
13. How will this person adjust to pack dynamics and heirarchies ?
14. What is this person's temperament ?
15. How does this person perform under extreme stress ?
16. ....... add your factors and questions here .......
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Post by Rhuen »

cumulusprotagonist wrote:
WerewolfKeeper3 wrote:Finally a voice of reason in the sea of endless arguing.
What cumulusprotagonist said.
I like this site, i would also like it if people (himself included) would stop arguing about something so stupid.
We're here to discuss what our theories are (and he uses that term loosely,) and to bounce ideas off each other.
SO far, i haven't seen anyone doing that, at least not in this thread, and at least not that far into it.
Can we please get back to the topic we were attempting to disscuss and not get mad at each other again?
Please?
I am trying to end the arguement a different way...
Asking nicely does not work
Asking strongly or angrily does not work.
So what else is there?

Might I suggest agreeing to disagree? I doubt this will work...

So just agree that Vuladari's definition EXISTS and is documented and then let it go.
Terasta
Rhuen
Just agree that Vuldari's definition EXISTS and THEN let it go.
\

Why am I on that list, from Vuldari's earlier post I gathered that he finnaly got my point as he basically re-iterated it. and had no intention of continuing on. But mentioning me like I would has brought me back.
I know the myth,
We take what we like from it and add to it.
Just as people have always done, and as all the early stories were different from each other only one common trend existed. (Man/wolf) so anyone todayif they so wish can take this and add almost anything and still be seen as it.
Although even I would say its good to look back at the old mythical and traditional versions now and then and remember where this thing came from originally so we have a reference point. But a reference point for a fictional creature isn't a guiding parameter except on the lowest common denomnitor (man/wolf) which exists between the diverse versions seen in the old legends, myths, and up to our modern versions.
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Post by Zombie »

Staying away from the ongoing pissing contest.....

I think they would tolerate therians better than the general population, and most likely "recruit" from them.
There, no ranting!
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Post by Terastas »

cumulusprotagonist wrote:So just agree that Vuladari's definition EXISTS and is documented and then let it go.
Terasta
Rhuen
Just agree that Vuldari's definition EXISTS and THEN let it go.
I'm a little worried that you spelled my name wrong (it is written right there on the website), but if I was a real tiger, I could have a stripe for every time that's happened, so I'm used to it. :wink: Just for the record though, we weren't trying to prove that Vuldari's definition didn't exist. Just that other definitions besides his exist as well.

Vuldari meanwhile pretty much just said the exact same thing in a longer, more winded form, so here's my response to him:
Terastas wrote:
Rhuen wrote:No one hates you for your Opinion.
Its how you present your opinion that is getting under these people's skin.

Its one thing to say, "this is how I interprit it"
its another to say, "this is the truth and that's that"

if you had said your piece and someone else said, "well to me its this" and you hadn't come back and basically said, "well no it isn't its this" then no one would have blinked twice in your direction.

Opinions are opinions not facts, and despite what ever research you may have done, it has no effect on how others have concluded themselves in this arena given their own experiences clearly.

So just dropping the idea of being right 100% would be a start.

Everyone is intitlted to their own opinion. Someone disagreeing with your view and having a different one is not a personal attack on you or your views. Its just a different view from your own and thats that.
Amen.

Vuldari, shut up about your damn facts! The only time there was ever any "facts" about werewolves was back when it was also a fact that the sun was revolving around a flat Earth. Furthermore, those "facts" were that werewolves were the result of witchcraft or other "magical" means. If I recall, one of the very first things we agreed on two years ago was that lycanthropy as magic was a very unpopular idea. If you're so bent out of shape that this forum is deviating from the "facts," why didn't you bring it up two years ago when we did in the first place?

You can make your posts as long as you want, but it doesn't change the fact (no pun intended) that you're trying to push your own opinion as 100% fact and fault anyone that disagrees with you. You've taken what should have been an otherwise typical discussion and turned it entirely into a rant about you.

If you can't accept that you do not automatically have the truth, take all of your "truths" and stick them back up where you pulled them from.
Yes, it is the exact same reply as last time. Vuldari is still trying to push fiction as fact with little to no acknowledgment of the counterarguments, so I'm just going to keep recycling the replies that he's ignoring.
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Post by cumulusprotagonist »

"All we do crumbles to the ground though we refuse to see."

-Dust in the Wind, Kansas
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So, um

Post by garouda »

So um, do we have to restart this topic in a new thread or what to get back on track ?
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Post by Lukas »

ive read all the posts, all the flames, all the defense and i got only 1 thing to say
I understand PERIOD!
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Post by Vuldari »

Terastas wrote:Yes, it is the exact same reply as last time. Vuldari is still trying to push fiction as fact with little to no acknowledgment of the counterarguments, so I'm just going to keep recycling the replies that he's ignoring.
This conversation has gone off on so many tangents, because of my having to make side-points about portions of different points I was trying to make which people made a big deal about that I don't ever remember how we got to where we are, or what my first point was supposed to be any more.

BTW, "Shut Up", and "that is not popular", are not counterarguments. They are just invalidations of my opinion and input.


I responded to that post by Terastas, which you claim to be recycling because I "Ignored" it. There was nothing in that post that was in any way contradictory to the points and Ideas I was trying to get across, which just continues to reinforce over and over again that almost none of you seem to know what I am talking about. ...but whatever it is you THINK I am talking about, it is apparently something you find very offensive, because I've been receiving a disproportionate amount of anger about it.


*sigh*
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