Divergent and Convergent Insight

[Defensorem Lupus]

We must find the truth! It is imperative that this happens. Spread the word by any means necessary. We are being used and lied to. This has to stop. It is our right, our duty, as humans to do something about it. Now is the time for change!

I made a group on FaceBook: http://www.facebook.com/groups/edit.php ... 6999753261
Come join and make a difference!

[Aki]

The truth about what? Such a broad brush. You'll never find anything if you search so broadly. This is why science has very specific fields of study. It's why we have scientists who's entire job is finding s*** out about species of bugs, or studying cancer and cancer only, or a very specific part of your body.

Just going "lol, truth" and trying to find out everything isn't going to work. It's admirable in a fashion, but terribly naive.

[JoshuaMadoc]

The reason why I never join these kinds of groups is because many of its members are extremely vulnerable to corruption a la PETA.

[Defensorem Lupus]

The truth about what? Such a broad brush. You'll never find anything if you search so broadly. This is why science has very specific fields of study. It's why we have scientists who's entire job is finding s*** out about species of bugs, or studying cancer and cancer only, or a very specific part of your body.

Just going "lol, truth" and trying to find out everything isn't going to work. It's admirable in a fashion, but terribly naive.

The truth about everything and life. I understand that, that is why much help is needed in all of these fields. In stead of other people doing experiments, research, and the such, and telling you, you do it yourself and come to your own conclusions. I am trying to make people be aware of that. Do not listen to the establishment and the people in power, listen to yourself.

The reason why I never join these kinds of groups is because many of its members are extremely vulnerable to corruption a la PETA.

For one thing, I made this group and I do not affiliate myself with any group (especially PETA). What am I doing is something people can trust to do because everyone is equal and going about there own way in finding the truth. Then we all get together and share our findings with each other. I am trying to spread awareness and hope that we can make a change and a difference in how things are going. How things are going now is bad and getting worse.

[Aki]

The truth about everything and life.

Yeeeeeah, good luck on that. Might as well attempt to describe the color red to a naturally blind man.

I understand that, that is why much help is needed in all of these fields. In stead of other people doing experiments, research, and the such, and telling you, you do it yourself and come to your own conclusions. I am trying to make people be aware of that. Do not listen to the establishment and the people in power, listen to yourself.

That makes no sense. By that logic I need to be an philosopher, mathematician, a surgeon, a physicist, a software engineer, a mechanic, a chef, a marine biologist, an ecologist, etc. etc. etc. You can't "do it yourself" and come to your conclusions. There is too much information out there.

Human society relies on some measure of trust and cooperation. It's one thing to question things. It's another entirely to throw it out the window search of "truth." Not all people in positions of authority are evil.

For one thing, I made this group and I do not affiliate myself with any group (especially PETA). What am I doing is something people can trust to do because everyone is equal and going about there own way in finding the truth. Then we all get together and share our findings with each other. I am trying to spread awareness and hope that we can make a change and a difference in how things are going. How things are going now is bad and getting worse.

Fun fact: This is what scientists of all stripes already do. It's how we have compiled knowledge throughout time.

[JoshuaMadoc]

Also how would I know if your group and others like it wouldn't go as far as replicating the Black Mesa incident after some smartass thought it'd be noble to jump into the Large Hadron Collider while it's still running in order to stop the deeds of evil corporations around the world?

We may have an actual Gordon Freeman, but he's not qualified to even use a spoon efficiently.

[Wselfwulf]

Do not listen to the establishment and the people in power, listen to yourself

As much as I can empathize with this sentiment, there is little use for absolutes. The most potent tool is critical thinking, and the ability to go on and evaluate claims and arguments made by any source. In the matter of surgery we defer to the surgeon, else we spend 5+ years getting the tertiary education he did. One thing to note is we can still have some measure of ability to evaluate a surgeons medical practices, for example by understanding the difference between 'clinically proven' and 'peer-reviewed publication', and other ways that can indicate you are being misinformed in some way.

To this end gathering knowledge and truths is laudable, and there are many fields of useful general knowledge to learn about and this can likely prove a lifelong process, but it is arrogant to to place yourself as the pinnacle of the source factual knowledge.

[Defensorem Lupus]

All of you make very good points, and I agree with where you stand.

Maybe I am not explaining myself clearly enough, which at this point it is futile because I am horrible at explaining myself clearly. Maybe this quote from Mahatma Gandhi will help: "Be the change you want to see in the world." I am trying to live off of that quote. In order to do this, the truth must be known in order to change the "untruth" (or leave the truth as is). I hope this helps a little more.

If not, well that is why I made this thread. To see what you guys think. If I am going in the right direction or not. Also, if you are willing to help.

[Howlitzer]

If I may ask, for clarity's sake, for an example of a specific untruth you're speaking of?

[Defensorem Lupus]

A specific "untruth"? One is that humans are herbivores, not omnivores. Another is the accuracy of all historical events. Whether or not the medical field should should be trust worthy as in if medication really does "help" you and the such. That the life span is actually decreasing when we have been told it is increasing. And the air you breathe may be more polluted and purposefully filled with toxins then you think. These are just the tip of the ice berg. There is much more.

[Grayheart]

A specific "untruth"? One is that humans are herbivores, not omnivores.

What makes you think humans are herbivores? This one website you linked on your finding-the-truth group? Hopefully this isn't your only source - otherwise I would be tempted to call you a little bit naive in this regard, 'cause the evidences that are presented there sound more than just dodgy to me. But let's have a look at some of the claims at least made there, since you want us to share our thoughts and find out the truth:

Facial Muscles
CARNIVORE: Reduced to allow wide mouth gape
HERBIVORE: Well-developed
OMNIVORE: Reduced
HUMAN: Well-developed

First: What is meant with reduced and well developed in regard to facial muscles? What kind of facial muscles are meant anyways? Very dodgy here.
Second: Could it be that our facial muscles are so highly developed because humans communicate a lot with facial expressions? Think about it - for yourself, like you want us all to do.

Jaw Type
CARNIVORE: Angle not expanded
HERBIVORE: Expanded angle
OMNIVORE: Angle not expanded
HUMAN: Expanded angle

Again: What kind of measurement is used here? What kind of animals are contrasted to each other? This whole analogy and all that follow are more than just dodgy and unduly suggestive in nature. Important facts that would function as an argument for the opposite opinion - namely that humans are omnivores - are not presented on this site.

What kind of arguments you may ask? Well, let's see if I can give you at least one argument in the same format used by the one who thinks humans are naturally herbivores:

CARNIVORE: Big brain in relation to body size
HERBIVORE: Small brain in relation to body size
OMNIVORE: Big brain in relation to body size
HUMAN: Very big brain in relation to body size

Hm, why do we need such big, energy costly brains if humans are natural herbivores? Why do we eat meat anyway? Why did our ancestorsd eat meat and why did they become so highly skilled hunters? Ask yourself this questions, look around, read some serious books about the matter, start using your common sense - and stop spreading such deeply flawed evidences without even trying to prove it for yourself first. Humans are omnivores - our whole brain-size and the related intelligence is the result of the evolutionary process that turned our early ancestors into very skilled hunters. Even chimpanzees, our closest relatives, hunt from time to time and won't let carrion be wasted, if they can manage to get a little bit of it.

If you should eat meat or not nowadays is your personal choice - as it is anyone else's. But to claim that humans are herbivores with such dodgy arguments is following and spreading a specific agenda.

Well, my two cents

[Aki]

What kind of arguments you may ask? Well, let's see if I can give you at least one argument in the same format used by the one who thinks humans are naturally herbivores:

CARNIVORE: Big brain in relation to body size
HERBIVORE: Small brain in relation to body size
OMNIVORE: Big brain in relation to body size
HUMAN: Very big brain in relation to body size

Hm, why do we need such big, energy costly brains if humans are natural herbivores? Why do we eat meat anyway? Why did our ancestorsd eat meat and why did they become so highly skilled hunters? Ask yourself this questions, look around, read some serious books about the matter, start using your common sense - and stop spreading such deeply flawed evidences without even trying to prove it for yourself first. Humans are omnivores - our whole brain-size and the related intelligence is the result of the evolutionary process that turned our early ancestors into very skilled hunters. Even chimpanzees, our closest relatives, hunt from time to time and won't let carrion be wasted, if they can manage to get a little bit of it.

If you should eat meat or not nowadays is your personal choice - as it is anyone else's. But to claim that humans are herbivores with such dodgy arguments is following and spreading a specific agenda.

Well, my two cents

Here's another:

Look at eyes.


CARNIVORE: Eyes oriented to the front
HERBIVORE: Eyes oriented to the side
OMNIVORE: Eyes oriented to the front
HUMAN: Eyes oriented to the front.

To say nothing of our teeth. Look at a Pig's teeth. Pigs are omnivores. Like humans, they have both grinding and biting teeth. If humans were less like pigs and more like cows, we wouldn't have our canine teeth. They serve zero purpose to a herbivore.

There's also the fact we walk on two legs, too. That we walk on two legs is, in fact, part of the reason we lack claws or fangs. We're not hunters like lions or tiger or wolves are. Humans are endurance hunters par extraordinaire. With our bipedal configuration, sweat glands, and capacity to carry water in our hands, we can follow you until you drop dead from exhaustion no matter how fast you can run. This tactic of hunting is still practiced in parts of Africa in fact.

We don't need fangs or claws. We'll just follow you and stab you in the throat with a pointy stick when you lay down to rest.

That's how humanity rolls, baby.

[Howlitzer]

A specific "untruth"? One is that humans are herbivores, not omnivores. Another is the accuracy of all historical events. Whether or not the medical field should should be trust worthy as in if medication really does "help" you and the such. That the life span is actually decreasing when we have been told it is increasing. And the air you breathe may be more polluted and purposefully filled with toxins then you think. These are just the tip of the ice berg. There is much more.

1. Humans are not herbivores... you're downright wrong on this one, and empirical evidence says so. Yes, humans can survive on a herbivorous diet to a degree (some cannot due to intolerances, I know this first hand). Humans can also survive on a carnivorous diet....what does that make us? OMNIVORES. We can survive on both and do so naturally.

Our closest primate relatives are omnivores, as, by examination, were our hominid ancestors. Humans have been eating a primarily omnivorous diet for all of recorded history....so the proof is right there, plain as day. I'd like to see more concrete evidence to your claim that this is all a lie.


2. The average human lifespan IS INCREASING. Once again, there's empirical evidence that says you're wrong here.... look in graveyards, look in the history books... yes, various parts of the world have spiked in life expectancy over the ages, but these were parts of the world where more developed civilization sprung up...i.e. life expectancy INCREASED as the world modernized. Overall, it has had an upward trend, jumping from the 30's or 40's in the early 20th century to a global average of 67 today. In the US the average is upwards of 77.....the LESS DEVELOPED parts of the world have a lower life expectancy...

so, logically, as the world has advanced, science has advanced, and civilization has developed...lifespans have increased overall. It makes sense that that would happen, and the data shows that it has.



If you're going to make such claims, back it up with EVIDENCE...and I mean solid evidence, not merely pointing out tiny inconsistencies that say nothing of meaning...and not claims of conspiracy in every facet of the world...which is what you're doing here to a mind boggling degree.

[Wselfwulf]

What I'm getting is the red flag of conspiracy theories. They often work on an argument from ignorance and more importantly, unfalsifiability. If I say, 'where is the evidence modern medicine is bogus?' the conspiracist can say 'they are hiding it otherwise they wouldn't get away with it'.

One good point though is historical accuracy, which most historians and academics are well aware of. The evaluation of a primary or secondary source should be done with writer, era, and agenda in mind.

But anyhow, back to conspiracies. If you think you see evidence, or evidence of a cover-up (missing records and the like), for some conspiracy, try to imagine a motive. If you can get a motive that might make sense, then you have to think; is there a better way of the alleged culprits to achieve this goal?

Imagine (and this is crazy) the government pollutes the airways, to reduce our lifespan, so that it doesn't have to blow so much revenue on elderly care schemes, pension etc. Instead, it could raise the pension age, reduce or remove benefits or create all kinds of red tape. This way, families of the elderly would have to work more to support them, and more work mean more revenue and a stronger local economy.

Conspiracy theories can be seductive, even more so because they do exist (like Watergate, gunpowder plot, big tobacco), and they play upon around indignance, paranoia, discontent and disollusion. When we hear one, the best we can do is think critically about motive and evidence, and sometimes we have to look at our own beliefs, and see if there is some sort of tendency or belief we have that makes us want to belief some things that we hear.

[Terastas]

The truth about everything and life.

42.

There. Done. Pleasure working with you all.

[Defensorem Lupus]

Thank you guys. You have all made sense. Okay, well if I find the proof and evidence I will let you know. It may take my whole life time but I will try. I just know that there are things going on and I have watched enough documentaries that support this. In the end, you can never know. That is what I hate the most, that fact. Well, one thing I do is that the animal you are going to eat should be treated with respect and taken care of before death. I am not against eating meat as long as what you are eating was healthy when it was alive. There just some things though . . . I am going to have to think my approach over. Yes, the number 42 indeed!

[Wingman]

I've actually been puttering around with the design work and philosophy for a group with an aim much like this one, for a storyline I'm developing. They started off purely as a non-hostile pseudo-comedy antagonistic, doing stuff like breaking into research facilities and inadvertantly releasing the dangerous things being studied within, or getting themselves smited by the local deity when they start preaching about the lack of evidence for said deity's divinity. They've grown up a bit since they were nearly exterminated when some intreped young members got past the door that said "Danger, Keep out!", past the mystical barrier, and opened the tomb of the sorcerer-king who was so evil his name has become a word to curse by and was then buried in the deepest hole available.

They've cut back on expeditions into the field since then, and focus more on discussion and observation.

Good luck on your search, just remeber than some secrets are secret for a reason.

[ledrif]

YOU MUST REACH OUT THE TRUTH!!

Kidding kidding...
well good luck on this search for the truth about everything but be aware some things supposed to remain a lie because pepole are not YET ready to face them....

[IndianaJones]

Don't blindly believe everything, like I did when I was in my high school years. I am interested in reading and researching about Conspiracies, Truth, Paranormal, ET, UFO, Government secrets, and the Illuminati. But those things cause negative actions when you share to your friends and family. I don't do it anymore.

The truth can be scary! There are things that humans cannot comprehend! They won't understand! Let them open their eyes and mind by their own.

Why, it's a small world after all!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=APmHR2bmQgw

[Defensorem Lupus]

[Morkulv]

A specific "untruth"? One is that humans are herbivores, not omnivores. Another is the accuracy of all historical events. Whether or not the medical field should should be trust worthy as in if medication really does "help" you and the such. That the life span is actually decreasing when we have been told it is increasing. And the air you breathe may be more polluted and purposefully filled with toxins then you think. These are just the tip of the ice berg. There is much more.

*deep breath in*

...

*deep breath out*

...

I hate to ask this, and please don't take this the wrong way, but are you a hippie by any chance?

[Defensorem Lupus]

A specific "untruth"? One is that humans are herbivores, not omnivores. Another is the accuracy of all historical events. Whether or not the medical field should should be trust worthy as in if medication really does "help" you and the such. That the life span is actually decreasing when we have been told it is increasing. And the air you breathe may be more polluted and purposefully filled with toxins then you think. These are just the tip of the ice berg. There is much more.

*deep breath in*

...

*deep breath out*

...

I hate to ask this, and please don't take this the wrong way, but are you a hippie by any chance?

Did you read my newest post? Concentrate on that one. Do not mind the posts I made before Wed Sept. 15, 2010 3:25 am. Like I said, I had some time to think about things... While we are on the topic... What is wrong with hippies?

[Morkulv]

A specific "untruth"? One is that humans are herbivores, not omnivores. Another is the accuracy of all historical events. Whether or not the medical field should should be trust worthy as in if medication really does "help" you and the such. That the life span is actually decreasing when we have been told it is increasing. And the air you breathe may be more polluted and purposefully filled with toxins then you think. These are just the tip of the ice berg. There is much more.

*deep breath in*

...

*deep breath out*

...

I hate to ask this, and please don't take this the wrong way, but are you a hippie by any chance?

Did you read my newest post? Concentrate on that one. Do not mind the posts I made before Wed Sept. 15, 2010 3:25 am. Like I said, I had some time to think about things... While we are on the topic... What is wrong with hippies?

I never said that there is anything wrong with being a hippie, its just that the things that you wrote are very simular to the things that are said by hippie-activists.

[Defensorem Lupus]

A specific "untruth"? One is that humans are herbivores, not omnivores. Another is the accuracy of all historical events. Whether or not the medical field should should be trust worthy as in if medication really does "help" you and the such. That the life span is actually decreasing when we have been told it is increasing. And the air you breathe may be more polluted and purposefully filled with toxins then you think. These are just the tip of the ice berg. There is much more.

*deep breath in*

...

*deep breath out*

...

I hate to ask this, and please don't take this the wrong way, but are you a hippie by any chance?

Did you read my newest post? Concentrate on that one. Do not mind the posts I made before Wed Sept. 15, 2010 3:25 am. Like I said, I had some time to think about things... While we are on the topic... What is wrong with hippies?

I never said that there is anything wrong with being a hippie, its just that the things that you wrote are very simular to the things that are said by hippie-activists.

Ah, okay. That is good to know. I do not like hate and I am doing this so that people do not to hate.

[Scott Gardener]

Free will: a conscious being has the ability to decide for itself what it wants to be. I say we expand on that, directing our evolution towards greater freedom of identity.

In 2010, that means kicking the religious establishment out of the way of homosexual and bisexual civil rights, recognizing transgenders as people struggling to overcome a problem rather than just weird, and acknowledging minority religions like Wicca as legitimate, and not reasons to take away children from parents or fire people from work.

It also means getting over our notion of human superiority and recognizing that a legitimately "superior" being doesn't die so easily from cancer, stupid habits, or old age. It means fixing problems like chronic pain or paralyzing diseases like Parkinson's or muscular dystrophy, relegating them to the history books forever. And, that means being a bit more brave about genetic engineering and cybernetics, and not assuming in our science fiction that these technology are hubris against God or a monster waiting to kill us off.